Reseg
Member
That's me! Thanks!
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Why buying a Stromer?
- Thread starter bluecat
- Start date
17Stratton
Active Member
bluecat
Well-Known Member
a) cheaper: Yes, I fully agree!
b) faster: I strongly disagree!
We talk about street legal 45 km/h e-bikes. Top speed is set by law. Every bike in this category can reach it. The questions are:
- Can they maintain top speed in the flat with reasonable effort?
- What happens, if it goes (slightly) uphill?
- How is the acceleration?
We live in the age of IOT -and the Stromer are the sole ebikes with all these new features. And yes, I've the privilege to live in the e-bike bubble named Switzerland. Even Specialized has its ebike development center in Switzerland. This gives me the opportunity to compete against the various other brands everyday I commute. I like the debate, but it is very helpful, if all contributors had at least a test ride on a Stromer. I'll show you the riding statistics from another ST5 rider:
He did the last 24.9km with an average speed of 44.1km/h. This will be hard to beat...
Mass Deduction
Active Member
Yes, I can maintain 45 km/h on flat with reasonable effort, and 45 (or close to it) up slight uphills, on a variety of non-Stromer class-3 e-bikes. Once you hit the 75-90 Nm assist range on a lightweight mid-drive e-bike, that's pretty easy in my experience.
And there are bikes that aren't limited to 45 km/h. Not street legal in most places, though, admittedly.
But I can maintain 55+ on flat ground on a lightweight, powerful, de-regulated e-bike.As for acceleration, I want a gentler acceleration curve. Super fast acceleration is bad for battery range and for bicycle component longevity.
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
There’s a limit to how much BS one can say...
i tell you with 100% accuracy there’e no class 3 ebike that will go 45kmh STEADY (as in longer then 15seconds) on a slight uphill (as in >3% ).
Class 3 as in 750watts max. No Juiced Ccx , no no St5’s , not even my BH nitro....
Or maybe you mean 1 or 2 % incline with a 30mph tailwind with a 125-145lb rider ?
Try it on a 3-4%incline, with a normal 185-275LB rider weight, prefferably pothole filled as that’s how most of the Us road infrastructure is right now. Most you’ll get is 37-39kmh or in between 20- 24mph .
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
Any info on how much WH he had at the beginning of that 24.9km ride ? Or at the beginning of the last 24.09km ride
?I’d like to
do some comparison with other ebikes.
Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
That’s an oxymoron. 99.9% of
them are 50lb and heavier. Some are 42-47lb but that is definitely not lightweight.
Unless you have a custom 10k carbon Optibike and were too shy to mention it ? Or a DIY carbon one.
Removing the heavy components from a “lightweight” 55lb mod drive and replacing with carbon or light stuff doesn’t qualify.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Ebiker01,
I hope you realize that you keep on adding qualifications to the conditions when you are editing your posts, so at some point its impossible to disprove you. Im surprised you havnt added required moon phase Also seeing how most bikes cut out before 45km/h, its almost impossible to meet your criteria.
You also seem to be taking issues with what Mass is saying when he/she is using terminology like 'lightweight' or '45 (or close to it)' as if there is some 'known value for these' that he/she is violating and only you have the correct definition (more likely opinion).
I decided to take you up on 45km/h for 15 sec at > 3%. Keep in mind my CCX wasnt fully charged and the battery was at 60F when I started and it was 23F when I did this test with no wind. Also worthy of note is that I am recovering from a flu and havnt been on a bike for almost two weeks. FWIW, my CCX is running 2.3F/2.1R tires at 30F/35R psi. Im probably 250# all suited up with full camelback and winter clothes. This is my first attempt.
Attached is a screenshot from strava, in summary average grade of 4.3% in 11s, average speed of 44.42km/h. Its hard to meet your 'EXACT' criteria but I can do further attempts if need be.
I hope you realize that you keep on adding qualifications to the conditions when you are editing your posts, so at some point its impossible to disprove you. Im surprised you havnt added required moon phase
Also seeing how most bikes cut out before 45km/h, its almost impossible to meet your criteria.You also seem to be taking issues with what Mass is saying when he/she is using terminology like 'lightweight' or '45 (or close to it)' as if there is some 'known value for these' that he/she is violating and only you have the correct definition (more likely opinion).
I decided to take you up on 45km/h for 15 sec at > 3%. Keep in mind my CCX wasnt fully charged and the battery was at 60F when I started and it was 23F when I did this test with no wind. Also worthy of note is that I am recovering from a flu and havnt been on a bike for almost two weeks. FWIW, my CCX is running 2.3F/2.1R tires at 30F/35R psi. Im probably 250# all suited up with full camelback and winter clothes. This is my first attempt.
Attached is a screenshot from strava, in summary average grade of 4.3% in 11s, average speed of 44.42km/h. Its hard to meet your 'EXACT' criteria but I can do further attempts if need be.
Attachments
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
Well, we all know that ebikes are heavy, so a Lightweight mid drive ebike that he mentioned had to be a DIY project or whatever custom build he bought. And the close to 45kmh speed could be 43 or 44.8 ?
I think the most likely explanation is that he’s weight is around 165lb or lower ? Otherwise going 26mph or 45kmh on a slight uphill( what’s a slight uphill ??) is impossible for a long length of time- 1minute or longer .
CCX run- Was that in the R mode ? That is A pretty good Test run , Juiced has a good Powerfull battery. All batteries should be 52volts or higher. It was warmed too (the battery pack) . Not many class 3 ebikes (Or probably less then 3 models) can do that, pulling a 225- 250lb rider Like in your test. Also the few good ones -class 3’s- do not cut off at 45kmh. Turbo Vado, Stromer St1x/2/2s/3/St5, your CCX , my BH nitro , Trek SC or Allant , Bulls Grinder, Giant they all do 28mph and higher.
Not sure what speeds and lenght of time Massdeduction meant. But he made it seem very easy, and most class 3’s can’t sustain that.
Ps- Your battery was also good enough and i wish it a speedy recovery
. I was just contemplatimg on what would be a human energy capacity 100% charge (meaning from when waking up until about 30% left) if it is expressed in WH - maybe 1000wh for most of Us ?A point of reference: with my analog 20lb bike i can do a 100mile ride @18-19mph avg. and then i’m done.After that i would need a long slow recharge...meaning a 10hour sleep(don’t know if it’s at 2amps or 10amps !) . Many unknowns has the science there...
That ride on an ebike would take about 1.2KWH in level 2PAS with Avg. of 21/22mph.
The Juiced CCX- It’s actually a better ebike then the Stromer allthough some components could be upgraded. How much power does the CCX motor puts out in R mode ?
The Wattwagon is another nice speedy ebike , although not technically a class 3. That one from what i’ve read , can definitely go up a steep incline hill at 45kmh. But it has the Bafang 1.5kw motor.
We should have a hill contest :
Stromer St2s/St3/ST5 vs Juiced CCX vs any other capable class 3 ebikes !
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Mass Deduction
Active Member
You're wrong that 99.9% of mid-drives are 50 lb or heavier. Many are, and many aren't. My main mid-drive e-bike is 42.4 pounds, and it's a reasonably priced bike with an aluminum frame (Felt Sport-E https://feltbicycles.com/products/sport-e-50-s-electric-e-bike). Almost all of the mid-drive e-bikes our shop sells are in the 40-50 pound range. I'm not sure what proportion of the mid-drive market is sub-50 lb, but it's definitely more than 0.1% of the market.
And lightweight is relative. I said a lightweight mid-drive, so I was speaking to whatever is lightweight for a mid-drive, so you're wrong to describe it as an oxymoron.
And there are production mid-drive e-bikes in the 27-35 pound range, and they're typically far cheaper than what you suggested. The BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Two (https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/alpenchallenge-amp-sport-two-302101.html) weighs about 35 pounds and costs only $4700 Canadian, so about $3600-ish U.S. No $10K custom carbon bike required.
The pro-Stromer argument is weakened by spreading FUD. I'd be curious to test-ride a Stromer if I ever got the opportunity, but using falsehoods to support the pro-Stromer argument actually weakens the pro-Stromer argument when anyone looks at the facts.
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Mass Deduction
Active Member
I have three e-bikes. None are custom/DIY builds. All are 41-46 lbs in their stock configurations, though some have been accessorized.
The heaviest is my Raleigh Tamland iE which went from 46 to 49 pounds after I'd kitted it out.
The lightest is my Haibike XDURO Race S 6.0 which is less than 42 pounds.
In the time that I've owned an e-bike, my weight has ranged from 170-180 pounds.
A slight uphill is just what it sounds like, it's a grade that is not very steep. I have a GPS, so perhaps I'll give you an example of what I consider to be a slight uphill grade. I have to pedal pretty hard to maintain 45 (or close to it) when going up a slight uphill. But I am a lifelong commuter cyclist, so I'm no stranger to pedalling hard.
Not pedalling hard doesn't appeal to me. That's one of the reasons why I own an electric bicycle, rather than an electric motorcycle.
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
We are debating about the Class 3 mid drives , most of them being above 50lb .
Please don’t deviate . You mentioned it earlier about a lightweight mid drive hitting 45kmh.. that’s automatically a class 3. So 50lb is not a lightweight. Maybe 35-37lb it is.
Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
170-180lb and that other statement, now it does make sense and i’m in same category . Ex racer , but definetly even with a good weight and high rpm and power , can’t keep it up for too long.
And yea i also like the sense of unity or integration with the ebike that comes with pedalling it in order to go at different speeds . On a moto or ebike throttle mode only, there is a disconnection.
Ex.- if the slight hill is few miles long, eventually after 1mile, the speed will drop closer to 23-24mph. Maybe on the CCX it won’t b/c it has 48vx25amps =1300watts available in R mode.
This 40-50lbs class 3’s ebikes i know about them, but what i consider a lightweight for a Class 3 ebike is under 40lb.
That BMC AMP you’ve mentioned, is class 1. They might make it into a class 3 and that would be an awesome ride at only 4k for the carbon version. 30lb !
This i consider the class weights for ebikes.
Under 37lb is a Lightweight, 37- 47lb middleweight, 47-57 a heavyweight , over 57lb- An Overweighted ebike
.Ps- I’m actually neutral when it comes to pro Stromer b/c some work really good , have the GPS feature, and then some others are just lemons. And i don’t own one anyway , is better to let the owners relate their experiences.
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Mass Deduction
Active Member
You didn't say most of them, you said 99.9% of them. I believe that's false, I believe more than 0.1% of the class 3 market is sub-50 pounds. I own two, and one was 41.5 lbs stock and the other was 46 pounds. Both of them were production line bikes, neither was custom nor anywhere near the $10K price point you threw out earlier.
Not only am I not the one deviating, you're the one who moved the goalpost from 99.9% to "most" (which could be as little as 50.1%).
Lightweight, as an adjective, means "weighing less than average". Surely 41.5 lbs weighs less than average for a class-3 e-bike, especially given your opinion of what they typically weigh.
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Mass Deduction
Active Member
170-180lb and that other statement, now it does make sense and i’m in same category . Ex racer , but definetly even with a good weight and high rpm and power , can’t keep it up for too long.
And yea i also like the sense of unity or integration with the ebike that comes with pedalling it in order to go at different speeds . On a moto or ebike throttle mode only, there is a disconnection.
Ex.- if the slight hill is few miles long, eventually after 1mile, the speed will drop closer to 23-24mph. Maybe on the CCX it won’t b/c it has 48vx25amps =1300watts available in R mode.
This 40-50lbs class 3’s ebikes i know about them, but what i consider a lightweight for a Class 3 ebike is under 40lb.
That BMC AMP you’ve mentioned, is class 1. They might make it into a class 3 and that would be an awesome ride at only 4k for the carbon version. 30lb !
This i consider the class weights for ebikes.
Under 37lb is a Lightweight, 37- 47lb middleweight, 47-57 a heavyweight , over 57lb- An Overweighted ebike
Ps- I’m actually neutral when it comes to pro Stromer b/c some work really good , have the GPS feature, and then some others are just lemons. And i don’t own one anyway , is better to let the owners relate their experiences.
To get a super lightweight class 3 e-bike, buy a BMC Alpenchallenge AMP with a STePS 8000 motor, and use software to change the default max speed settings. Uniquely amongst brand-name motors, the E8000 motor has the ability to be set to any speed you want from 25 to 60 km/h. Doing so likely voids your warranty, but it oddly doesn't require hacking in the traditional sense. You do need to use unofficial software to do it, though. Because it's not a hack, it's just changing the default values in the motor, you get the correct speed reading on your display. Another neat bonus of doing this with the E8000 is that you can set the max speed of each mode of assist independently, so you can have a class 1 mode, a class 3 mode, etc. You can also change the max torque, max wattage, and max percentage assist for each mode of assist independently too. It's the most tune-able motor on the market that I know of. But if you go this route, don't expect Shimano to help you out if you have problems!
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
Oh that is really good. Thank you for letting me me know.
Is probably the most decently priced carbon ebike on the market.
Shimano Steps motor , i heard is great , the only other competitor for AMP would be the Specialized Creo @9k for carbon version with a 320wh battery vs BMC’s 500wh.
There is a good thread on the Bmc, people had very good experiences with this model.
Your 2 electric horses are at a very good weight for an ebike ! That’s like the sweet spot. A rider weight of up to 185lb and an ebike of up to 45lb. I’m assuming the Haibike Sdurro is also a 28mph capable, that sounds like a lot of fun on 2 wheels.
Is probably the most decently priced carbon ebike on the market.
Shimano Steps motor , i heard is great , the only other competitor for AMP would be the Specialized Creo @9k for carbon version with a 320wh battery vs BMC’s 500wh.
There is a good thread on the Bmc, people had very good experiences with this model.
Your 2 electric horses are at a very good weight for an ebike ! That’s like the sweet spot. A rider weight of up to 185lb and an ebike of up to 45lb
. I’m assuming the Haibike Sdurro is also a 28mph capable, that sounds like a lot of fun on 2 wheels.
Mass Deduction
Active Member
Oh that is really good. Thank you for letting me me know.
Is probably the most decently priced carbon ebike on the market.
Shimano Steps motor , i heard is great , the only other competitor for AMP would be the Specialized Creo @9k for carbon version with a 320wh battery vs BMC’s 500wh.
There is a good thread on the Bmc, people had very good experiences with this model.
Your 2 electric horses are at a very good weight for an ebike ! That’s like the sweet spot. A rider weight of up to 185lb and an ebike of up to 45lb
Yes, the Haibike is a class-3 drop-bar road bike. I was really enjoying it until the tendons in my arms started hurting, so now I'm mostly riding flat bar again as that aggravates my tendons less. All my bikes were class 3 bikes until the Felt with the E8000 motor came along, and now I have a bike of every class, all in one bike!
I love having a mode that's 25 km/h for super long distance rides, and a mode that's 32 km/h for riding regional trails, and a mode that 45-60 km/h for riding highways and on private property. Let's just say, I *only* see Shimano E8000 motors in my near future. And I had the flu for the last week of December and lost 10-15 pounds. I'm now maintaining my weight again, but now my weight is in the 160-165 range instead of the 170-180 range!
Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
Wow. That’s amazing. I didn’t knew the secrets of the E8000. My class 3 rear hub Dapu motor does a max. of 50kmh only...i may change the controler and see if i can get a higher speed.
We should keep The E8000 secret on the down low before they discontinue it....
Q- What kept you from not getting the BMC AMP in the first place instead of the Haibike ? Or was it not available back then ? I see that , that model is not available any longer.
. My class 3 rear hub Dapu motor does a max. of 50kmh only...i may change the controler and see if i can get a higher speed. We should keep The E8000 secret on the down low before they discontinue it....
Q- What kept you from not getting the BMC AMP in the first place instead of the Haibike ? Or was it not available back then ? I see that , that model is not available any longer.
Mass Deduction
Active Member
Wow. That’s amazing. I didn’t knew the secrets of the E8000
We should keep The E8000 secret on the down low before they discontinue it....
Q- What kept you from not getting the BMC AMP in the first place instead of the Haibike ? Or was it not available back then ? I see that , that model is not available any longer.
The tunability of the E8000 is a subject of much discussion on the EMTB forums (that's where I learned about it), so there's no keeping it secret!
The trick is that you need to downgrade to an old Shimano firmware, as Shimano has modified newer firmwares to stop people tuning the motor in this way. And again, if something goes wrong at any point, you're on your own. I'm fine with that, I would never expect Shimano to warranty a product of theirs that I'd messed around with in an unauthorized way.Which model isn't available anymore? The Felt Sport-E, or the BMC? If you mean the Felt, yes, it's a 2019 model and they have some new models coming for 2021.
I didn't get the BMC right away because I didn't know about it until a couple of months ago. There's always more to learn with e-bikes!
