What The Europeans Have Planned For The EMTB World

[FlatSix911]

I've enjoyed a lot of the discussion here but ultimately there's dozens of contradictory 'right' products for the myriad of user and application scenarios.

A bike to haul a big American up a Rocky firetrail isn't going to look or ride like a bike ridden by a wiry European shredding up and down the Alps.

Any attempt to distil down further inevitably runs into confirmation bias as we seek to justify our own purchases and diminish those of others.

I see it again and again here: mid vs hub, fat vs, er, non-fat, legal vs illegal spec, online vs LBS, brand name vs upstart, fluoro vs matte black, etc, etc.

Embrace the relativity folks! When it comes to personal preference there is no universal truth. You can only listen or ignore the experiences of others who have trod the path before.

Love the examples... you forgot to mention the Australian who is riding with a case of beer to the beach!
PS. I lived on the Gold Coast for a few years.

 

[iabob]

Honestly, one of the more interesting threads I’ve been on in a long time! Here might be an example to excite the grey matter and get some opinions ebbing and flowing a little more. Clearly some of us are cool with more power, some are not. SO...imagine it’s 2026 and manufacturers are releasing their new for 2027 models. Materials science has already dropped 2-4 kg’s from the weight of high end emtb’s. Cool right? And new for 2027 is a solid state battery that packs 7 times the electricity in 1/2 the weight of an “old” Li battery. And the motor is 2/3 the size, 1/3 less weight, silent, and has 2000 watts of power, customizable via state of the art dash that allows you to dial up exactly how much assistance you want to ride your bike up the world’s steepest incline to the world’s most technical mtb trail. So you can pack your emtb for a week long camping trip, get there by bike, unpack and set up camp, ride your trails, and get back home without ever recharging. Do you seriously hate that bike and wish they would’ve just stayed exactly the same as they were in 2019?

 

[reed scott]

Honestly, one of the more interesting threads I’ve been on in a long time! Here might be an example to excite the grey matter and get some opinions ebbing and flowing a little more. Clearly some of us are cool with more power, some are not. SO...imagine it’s 2026 and manufacturers are releasing their new for 2027 models. Materials science has already dropped 2-4 kg’s from the weight of high end emtb’s. Cool right? And new for 2027 is a solid state battery that packs 7 times the electricity in 1/2 the weight of an “old” Li battery. And the motor is 2/3 the size, 1/3 less weight, silent, and has 2000 watts of power, customizable via state of the art dash that allows you to dial up exactly how much assistance you want to ride your bike up the world’s steepest incline to the world’s most technical mtb trail. So you can pack your emtb for a week long camping trip, get there by bike, unpack and set up camp, ride your trails, and get back home without ever recharging. Do you seriously hate that bike and wish they would’ve just stayed exactly the same as they were in 2019?

Be super if half those advances actually happened. There would definitely be a market for such. The price would be astronomical however. Though prices now for the more advanced bikes are nuts already. $8k for a bike? $10k? Desperation for most of us. I'm a tad over $11k now for two bikes I don't even have yet and I'm pretty sure I've lost my reason.

 

[reed scott]

What does this mean? That people don’t create situations where they break the law???

Whether you agree with the law or not, riding a vehicle on streets, paths and trails that it is not legal to be ridden on, even if you’re not speeding, is still breaking the law. I fear this behavior will lead to all ebikes being banned from these trails and paths because it will be much easier to enforce, versus authorities having to determine what is and isn’t legal.

If you don’t agree with the laws, then you should work with your elected officials to have them changed.

This thread has already gone off the rails, so I’ll refrain from speaking further on this legality topic.

I pretty much think most of the laws regulating ebikes are complete Bull Sh_t. Everybody that can, derestricts their bikes and cheats the regs as much as they can. As for me riding my class three bike in a bike lane ... there are plenty of laws against endangering others by riding any vehicle in an unsafe manner. If yahoos take their 1000 watt bikes on trails and tear things up the land managers can evict them. Ebikes are going to get regulated to the hilt no matter what. It's inevitable. We should regulate ourselves and police each other. Nanny state government will ruin the whole deal. Forest roads (original built for logging) and rail trails should be open to anything with pedals.

 

[PDoz]

This is easy - the 1200cc GS

A little surprised what I said could be in any way contentious though, its kind of the backbone of all motorsports. Although we're talking past each other to a degree, we're both talking about "useable power", its just where we find it that differs.

To be honest, I suspect you are missing my point.

I remember watching shane watts win the ?98? ISDE OUTRIGHT on a ktm 125. I also remember him riding past me on a steep slippery hill where I was struggling for traction on my xr600 and the bztrd tapped me on the shoulder, said something encouraging and waved as he took off.....balanced on the back wheel the whole time. On a 200 exc.

Truly great riders don't need gobs of powargh

 

[Dallant]

I pretty much think most of the laws regulating ebikes are complete Bull Sh_t. Everybody that can, derestricts their bikes and cheats the regs as much as they can. As for me riding my class three bike in a bike lane ... there are plenty of laws against endangering others by riding any vehicle in an unsafe manner. If yahoos take their 1000 watt bikes on trails and tear things up the land managers can evict them. Ebikes are going to get regulated to the hilt no matter what. It's inevitable. We should regulate ourselves and police each other. Nanny state government will ruin the whole deal. Forest roads (original built for logging) and rail trails should be open to anything with pedals.

I pretty much think those laws are there to form an operational standard like speed limits.
Totally disagree that everyone who can, derestricts their bikes.
The idea that we should (or would) regulate/police each other is laughable. With so many people out in the woods carrying weapons these days, the idea that I’m going to stop and police someone makes no sense.

 

[MartsEbike]

To be honest, I suspect you are missing my point.

I remember watching shane watts win the ?98? ISDE OUTRIGHT on a ktm 125. I also remember him riding past me on a steep slippery hill where I was struggling for traction on my xr600 and the bztrd tapped me on the shoulder, said something encouraging and waved as he took off.....balanced on the back wheel the whole time. On a 200 exc.

Truly great riders don't need gobs of powargh

To be honest - it was just a joke, light-hearted banter.

All I said was it can add to the experience, I'm a little surprised so many would try argue otherwise.

I'm sure you mean well, but if there is a point to be made, it remains a mystery...

 

[Terry777]

One thing that is evident.... different folks.... different strokes? Very much so! Another thing that's very evident... there's something for everyone and that is a good thing... right? Ebikes are awesome!!

 

[Terry777]

I've enjoyed a lot of the discussion here but ultimately there's dozens of contradictory 'right' products for the myriad of user and application scenarios.

A bike to haul a big American up a Rocky firetrail isn't going to look or ride like a bike ridden by a wiry European shredding up and down the Alps.

Any attempt to distil down further inevitably runs into confirmation bias as we seek to justify our own purchases and diminish those of others.

I see it again and again here: mid vs hub, fat vs, er, non-fat, legal vs illegal spec, online vs LBS, brand name vs upstart, fluoro vs matte black, etc, etc.

Embrace the relativity folks! When it comes to personal preference there is no universal truth. You can only listen or ignore the experiences of others who have trod the path before.

Stick a wiry European on a bike that’s designed to haul a big American up firetrails and you get a lot of fun! It’s awesome!

 

[Haystacks]

To be honest - it was just a joke, light-hearted banter.

All I said was it can add to the experience, I'm a little surprised so many would try argue otherwise.

I'm sure you mean well, but if there is a point to be made, it remains a mystery...

Cmon get with the program, ffs. The point as always with these people is Bafang bad, sponsors good. Know your place pleb.

 

[reed scott]

I pretty much think those laws are there to form an operational standard like speed limits.
Totally disagree that everyone who can, derestricts their bikes.
The idea that we should (or would) regulate/police each other is laughable. With so many people out in the woods carrying weapons these days, the idea that I’m going to stop and police someone makes no sense.

Three points three answers.
1. Bikes don't need to be regulated like cars and trucks. Those kill many thousands of people every year. Bikes do not.
2. No way to really tell on that one but many do anyway.
3.We are policing each other right now right here. Your example is not realistic.

 

[Haystacks]

Three points three answers.
1. Bikes don't need to be regulated like cars and trucks. Those kill many thousands of people every year. Bikes do not.
2. No way to really tell on that one but many do anyway.
3.We are policing each other right now right here. Your example is not realistic.

Could you imagine what Stanley Milgram and Edward Bernays would make of this place? It's a psychologists wet dream.

 

[PDoz]

Cmon get with the program, ffs. The point as always with these people is Bafang bad, sponsors good. Know your place pleb.

Ummm....did you read the link from " these people" ?

. I'll be interested to watch robs thread building a Chinese sourced frame / motor using mainstream mtb equipment https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/my-chinese-frame-and-motor-build-the-cheeb-v1-0.17725/. Hopefully the owner builders can give enough input for the rest of us to open our minds a little

 

[bob armani]

Really not apples to apples in my opinion. We’re talking bicycles, not cars after all.
For climbing a steep technical trail, I’ll choose a lightweight bike with a mid-drive that puts out “only” 85Nm of very usable torque versus an overweight bike with something like a Bafang Ultra any day of the week.

Lightest E-bike possible with 85nm of torque is my goal in life at an affordable price point and I'm IN!

 

[Kayakguy]

Theoretically true. Realistically....well when was the last time you traded in a vehicle because it was too powerful? When was the last time Ford or Chevy ditched the top of the line Mustang or Camaro because they didn’t sell and everyone wanted the V-6 base model? Ever see Ford, Chevy, or Dodge advertise their trucks are better because they have less torque than the overpowered competition? So to e-bikes, if my Bosch speed line comes with 63 nM of torque how many riders will test a 2022 model with 80 nM and not like it better?

Actually, I did have a motorcycle that was too powerful (for me). It was an '83 Honda 650 Silverwing, which doesn't sound like much; but it had the most instant throttle response I've ever experienced on any vehicle. I didn't know a carbureted V-twin could perform like that. If I wasn't careful, I'd practically give myself whiplash when starting out. I never tried doing wheelies with it (having no interest in that trick), and admittedly I was always a bit of a wuss on a motorcycle. So I sold it and went to a Suzuki Bergman, 400 cc, with a cvt transmission. I fell in love with that type of transmission, and never wanted to go back to toe shifting with a clutch. And I feel I'm drifting off topic here.

 

[BarnBoy]

And speaking of a wiry Euro on a powerful eBike, have you ever seen Danny MacAskill play on a ebike??? The man is crazy.....
-BB

 

[Haystacks]

And speaking of a wiry Euro on a powerful eBike, have you ever seen Danny MacAskill play on a ebike??? The man is crazy.....
-BB

 

[mschwett]

Personally I'd vote for more power, less battery, less weight. Power is useful sometimes - you hit a big hill, you want to catch a stale green, a nasty unexpected headwind hits you on the way home... but if I didn't want exercise and a light, simple vehicle, i'd take transit, drive, ride a scooter, etc.

I'd also like to see the regulations much simpler - below a certain power, it's a bike, above, it's a motorcycle/moped and requires licensing and registration. Add speed limits to all trails, sidewalks, bike lanes, etc, just like cars on public roads. After all, a 100kg acoustic bike+rider going 25mph has exactly the same kinetic energy (and ability to stop/maneuver) as a 100kg ebike + rider. the 5kg difference in weight between me on my creo going 20mph and me on an acoustic road bike going 20mph isn't going to make any difference if I slam into someone...