What The Europeans Have Planned For The EMTB World

[McCorby]

I'm not creating anything. It exists. But again you are correct it is not evident on this particular thread. So what?

It seems like you are trying to turn this discussion into something it’s not........moving on.

 

[iabob]

Lol, I give! Enjoy your powah!

Edit: I’m curious, have you ridden a truly technical mountain bike trail?

Do you think twice the power would help or hinder this professional rider?

If I came across as argumentative I apologize. My intentions are strictly conversational. I’m new to ebikes, new to off pavement riding, live in central Iowa (no mountains) so no I’m not as badass as you. This reminds me of another very similar situation I was in about ten years ago. Sorry in advance for the long post:
I have been into motorcycles for quite awhile now, and was, still am, a big fan of Victory cruisers. Like a Harley but they’re better looking, more comfortable, more powerful, handle and brake better. A long time ago as part of a national meet a Polaris engineer was giving a keynote and did a q and a asking us about what we wanted. They had recently gotten into touring bikes, but that engine that was decent in a 650 lb cruiser was a bit anemic in an 850 lb tourer. At the time they were preparing to release a smaller displacement v-twin for a smaller cruiser, that made 100 hp. I told him what I wanted was for that motor to be doubled as a 200 hp silky smooth V-4 for a proper touring bike. He rolled his eyes and blew me off like several are here. But here’s the thing, by the time the power spins everything between the crank and the rear wheel you lose about 17%. That imaginary 200 hp v-4 would put about 165 hp down at the rear wheel. Compared to the competition at the time that was making about 125-135. So call it 40 more hp than the competition. Now to put it into true perspective what makes a bicycle or motorcycle faster isn’t solely about hp, it’s the power to weight ratio, we all know the effect of a modestly lighter bicycle is right? So while the competition was pushing about 6.5 lbs per hp, my suggested bike would be pushing about 5.25 lbs per hp.

I wasn’t talking about doubling anything then, and I haven’t once suggested doubling anything here. My exact words were, “a little bit more” and I gave an example of I think 92 Nm vs 85 Nm. Not double. SO...does the technical course serious mtb guy want a bike that shaves a little more weight? If all other things are equal, strength, rigidity, etc. is a 50 lb version better than a 55 lb version of an emtb? That’s a small but probably noticeable improvement in power to weight ratio. As would be a few more Nm of torque.

Ultimately my point was really about the guy, I think he was from Specialized, that made the comment about no more power. He doesn’t know that’s what the market wants, he’s acting like that Polaris engineer thinking he knows what’s best for me. And as for me, I have discovered how much fun off road is. I want to do more although it will still be limited to the Midwest, probably never meet your definition of technical. And I use my bike for a lot more than that. I am part of this marketplace even if I don’t impress “serious mountain bike rider” and I do know what I want, he doesn’t.

BTW, a couple years after I was blown off by that engineer, BMW came out with a brand new six cylinder 170 hp touring bike. And it’s been selling extremely well ever since. Victory Motorcycles unfortunately is dead, they’ve been out of business since 2017.

So I have a curiosity question for you too. Does your emtb have a controller with power assist modes? You like your 85 Nm but if that’s too much for a technical course, can’t you just put it in eco? There’s another improvement I can think of. Instead of four power assist modes, what if that future bike with a little more power I mentioned came with a touchscreen TFT style dash and you select your power assist by Nm instead of 1 of 4 modes? Yeah this bike has 92 Nm available, and sometimes when you’re on flat courses you use it, but when you’re on something you call technical, you can dial up anything you want. 85, 71, 33, 12, oops make that 13 Nm....no reason technology can’t let you dial in exactly how much you want. Up to the maximum available of course.

 

[McCorby]

I don’t think you came across argumentative. We’re all just participating in a fun discussion!

It’s ok to disagree as long as we try to keep it respectful. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the same!

 

[iabob]

I don’t think you came across argumentative. We’re all just participating in a fun discussion!

Awesome. I am enjoying it, but don’t want to come across like “that one guy” lol.

 

[McCorby]

Awesome. I am enjoying it, but don’t want to come across like “that one guy” lol.

Glad to hear you’re enjoying yourself.

 

[MartsEbike]

As someone who came from a motorbike background to ebikes I just can't understand the argument that power disconnects you from the experience.

it doesn't... far from it - it can create a whole new experience.

 

[McCorby]

As someone who came from a motorbike background to ebikes I just can't understand the argument that power disconnects you from the experience.

it doesn't... far from it - it can create a whole new experience.

I agree that it’s a different experience. “Too much power” for me equates to ghost pedaling and that’s something I personally don’t enjoy as it does make me feel disconnected from the bike and the road or trail. Bikes I’ve ridden with only cadence sensing also produce this disconnected feeling for me.

Edit: I too am from a motorbike background. If I wanted a bike that does all the work for me, I would purchase a small electric motorcycle or scooter rather than a bike with pedals, that I feel silly pedaling for the sole purpose of providing a cadence sensor a signal to propel me. That’s just me though. I understand others feel differently and that’s great!

 

[MartsEbike]

You hear the same arguments from cyclists against ebikers. With a change of expectation you can open yourself to new experiences, new riding styles... Sometimes its blooming good fun flying up hills, "riding" not cycling

Its also worth understanding the person as much as the bike... Ebikes have drawn two distinct crowds into the middle - cyclists looking for a bit more power, and motorcyclists looking for a little less. These bikes can cater for all, with plenty of manufacturers to all sides of the market. The purpose of a bike can be anything the owner wishes to do with it. Good luck to them

 

[Redspot]

Not to change the subject but, I have an old Ventana FS I've been riding for the last 25 years. I put a big Bafang 750 mid drive on it an tuned it up to 1000w with a whopping 4" of travel and XT V brakes. Y'all want to talk about controling big power on a REAL mountain bike in the tight stuff or...just keep pissing on each other's legs?

 

[McCorby]

You hear the same arguments from cyclists against ebikers. With a change of expectation you can open yourself to new experiences, new riding styles... Sometimes its blooming good fun flying up hills, "riding" not cycling

Its also worth understanding the person as much as the bike... Ebikes have drawn two distinct crowds into the middle - cyclists looking for a bit more power, and motorcyclists looking for a little less. These bikes can cater for all, with plenty of manufacturers to all sides of the market. The purpose of a bike can be anything the owner wishes to do with it. Good luck to them

Yep, having choices is a good thing! Our different biking wants and needs don’t make either of us right or wrong.....and we should be able to constructively share our knowledge, experiences, and opinions in threads like this.

 

[PDoz]

As someone who came from a motorbike background to ebikes I just can't understand the argument that power disconnects you from the experience.

it doesn't... far from it - it can create a whole new experience.

Perhaps an easy metaphor is - would you rather do the red bull rampage on a 200 cc blue smoker or a 1200 cc gs ?

My current emtb is a 2018 giant, powered by a yamaha pwx - so up to 360% assist, or I think 80 something nm. The whole bike was built around the 2018 expectation of what was needed to cope with that output, and imho is about 4-5 kg heavier than it needs to be for the riding I do. ( it's 23 kg) I have a printout somewhere of 2 years usage on my bike , and less than 5 % of the time was in the full assistance mode - and NONE of that was on technical trails. In full power, it's like riding a 380 cc blue smoker, just too brutal and difficult to control. Awesome for towing the kids up a firetrail to get to the next down hill run, but when faced with a steep rocky climb I select about 250% assist - interestingly VERY similar to a 250 cc blue smoker - enough grunt, enough power, and almost enough traction....

My next bike will be either a spec levo sl or an orbea rise , or hopefully whatever comes next to fullfill this market segment - enough useable power to help be tackle the trails I'd have loved bikes to be capable of 40 years ago....but low enough power that light components are possible without sacrificing reliability. I'll be interested to watch robs thread building a Chinese sourced frame / motor using mainstream mtb equipment https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/my-chinese-frame-and-motor-build-the-cheeb-v1-0.17725/. Hopefully the owner builders can give enough input for the rest of us to open our minds a little

ps my adv motorbike preferences have evolved the same way - over the past 40 years I've gone from twin cylinder 600-750 cc barges to single cylinder 650 cc bikes ( damn, I miss my 640 adv) . I still have fonder memories of an it200 or wr200 , or even ktm 125 vs the xr600/ kmt 400 etc. Power isn't everything

 

[MartsEbike]

Yep, having choices is a good thing! Our different biking wants and needs don’t make either of us right or wrong.....and we should be able to constructively share our knowledge, experiences, and opinions in threads like this.

Yeah that's it.... and remember, don't take life too seriously, none of us make it out of here alive, have fun and be merry while you still can... its nearly Christmas

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So I have a curiosity question for you too. Does your emtb have a controller with power assist modes? You like your 85 Nm but if that’s too much for a technical course, can’t you just put it in eco? There’s another improvement I can think of.

Giant allows tuning their SyncDrive Pro motor in the 50-360% assistance range (300% for weaker motors) split for five assist levels - POWER level not shown here. All newer Specialized e-bikes can have both pedalling assistance and maximum motor power tuned between 0-100% of the maximum values. It is not only the matter of maximum torque but also of maximum peak power that is in range of 520-550 W for the strongest Giant/Yamaha and Specialized/Brose motors. Still, the nominal power of these motors is 250 W for legal reasons. It is good to watch Electric Mountain Bike Network channel on YouTube.

I would like to see a monster e-bike climbing there. I expect a massive crash with the monster e-bike doing a wheelie on the attempt.

 

[McCorby]

Sorry, I missed iabob’s question regarding adjusting motor output for each of the assist modes, which are eco, trail, and boost.

Shimano also allows you to very easily do this with their e-tube app.

 

[PDoz]

In all fairness, the giant was supposed to offer that adjustability in 2018 but they took a year to get their (cr) app sorted. Meanwhile specialized had an app you could plug in the ride details and magically have assistance adjusted for you. It's 3 years later and I'm still nervous about downloading the latest giant app....

Meanwhile the power delivery has become more sophisticated / less intrusive. They seem to be constantly tweaking the torque curve, support higher cadence, the motor is less noisy and even has a primitive auto mode reading gradient, acceleration, cadence and speed ....Which I don't use because to me it feels less natural. Five modes is more than enough, to be honest 90% of my riding is in my adjusted 3 modes (50%, 125%, 250%) . I switch between them almost as intuitively as I used to switch between gears on the front sprocket.

Speaking of gears......did I hear mention in that video of a bike that just rides and doesn't miss / break gears? Was I fantasising?

 

[MartsEbike]

Perhaps an easy metaphor is - would you rather do the red bull rampage on a 200 cc blue smoker or a 1200 cc gs ?

My current emtb is a 2018 giant, powered by a yamaha pwx - so up to 360% assist, or I think 80 something nm. The whole bike was built around the 2018 expectation of what was needed to cope with that output, and imho is about 4-5 kg heavier than it needs to be for the riding I do. ( it's 23 kg) I have a printout somewhere of 2 years usage on my bike , and less than 5 % of the time was in the full assistance mode - and NONE of that was on technical trails. In full power, it's like riding a 380 cc blue smoker, just too brutal and difficult to control. Awesome for towing the kids up a firetrail to get to the next down hill run, but when faced with a steep rocky climb I select about 250% assist - interestingly VERY similar to a 250 cc blue smoker - enough grunt, enough power, and almost enough traction....

My next bike will be either a spec levo sl or an orbea rise , or hopefully whatever comes next to fullfill this market segment - enough useable power to help be tackle the trails I'd have loved bikes to be capable of 40 years ago....but low enough power that light components are possible without sacrificing reliability. I'll be interested to watch robs thread building a Chinese sourced frame / motor using mainstream mtb equipment https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/my-chinese-frame-and-motor-build-the-cheeb-v1-0.17725/. Hopefully the owner builders can give enough input for the rest of us to open our minds a little

ps my adv motorbike preferences have evolved the same way - over the past 40 years I've gone from twin cylinder 600-750 cc barges to single cylinder 650 cc bikes ( damn, I miss my 640 adv) . I still have fonder memories of an it200 or wr200 , or even ktm 125 vs the xr600/ kmt 400 etc. Power isn't everything

This is easy - the 1200cc GS

A little surprised what I said could be in any way contentious though, its kind of the backbone of all motorsports. Although we're talking past each other to a degree, we're both talking about "useable power", its just where we find it that differs.

I agree that it’s a different experience. “Too much power” for me equates to ghost pedaling and that’s something I personally don’t enjoy as it does make me feel disconnected from the bike and the road or trail. Bikes I’ve ridden with only cadence sensing also produce this disconnected feeling for me.

Edit: I too am from a motorbike background. If I wanted a bike that does all the work for me, I would purchase a small electric motorcycle or scooter rather than a bike with pedals, that I feel silly pedaling for the sole purpose of providing a cadence sensor a signal to propel me. That’s just me though. I understand others feel differently and that’s great!

Its never the sole purpose - you've kind of stripped all the sole out of it The purpose is to defeat the land in front of you in a manner that makes you happy - fast as possible! I have a throttle, cadence riding is just one part of the riding experience. At the speeds I like over rough ground you will be peddling too and usually adding to the input, especially over rough undulating ground.. You need to peddle to get any sort of range.. eBike basics don't change that much, conservation of power is still a consideration... (Unfortunately)

Obviously small electric motorbikes are an option for some. I considered one myself, but practicalities drove my decision on the bike I purchased. I'm not rich, I can't afford to purchase fleet of bikes. I don't have the storage space either, and due to where I live it means having to ride roads to access fields. In the UK I've come to find you need to pass a simple test - If the Police see you riding something that resembles a motocross bike, like a Surron, expect them to have a few questions. If you're riding a bike, with peddles, you won't have any such problems. You'd need to be riding like a complete clown to drawn their attention as they normally have better things to deal with. My bike can fly under the radar so to speak.

Buying an eBike was about opening up the opportunities for adventure - flying "under the radar" to the spots I really wanted to ride with vigour. (In ways I couldn't do on my motocross bike) Plus even trying to reduce my reliance on my car, I also had ideas of commuting more by bike. So I need to make something that really works for me across a lot of situations.

I won't even mention what powers my bike in this thread haha

 

[McCorby]

In the UK I've come to find you need to pass a simple test - If the Police see you riding something that resembles a motocross bike, like a Surron, expect them to have a few questions. If you're riding a bike, with peddles, you won't have any such problems. You'd need to be riding like a complete clown to drawn their attention as they normally have better things to deal with. My bike can fly under the radar so to speak.

So you like having pedals in order to skirt the laws? If so, I don’t know what to say about that, other than my fear that you and your cohorts will create a situation where “legal” ebikes are no longer allowed to be ridden legally on bicycle paths and mountain bike trails in the future.

 

[MartsEbike]

So you like having pedals in order to skirt the laws? If so, I don’t know what to say about that, other than my fear that you and your cohorts will create a situation where “legal” ebikes are no longer allowed to be ridden legally on bicycle paths and mountain bike trails in the future.

I would say those fears are unfounded and largely based on prejudice. Everyone has the ability to break the law - including on "legal" bikes. We don't create those situations, and its not really fair to accuse people of it.

 

[pmcdonald]

I've enjoyed a lot of the discussion here but ultimately there's dozens of contradictory 'right' products for the myriad of user and application scenarios.

A bike to haul a big American up a Rocky firetrail isn't going to look or ride like a bike ridden by a wiry European shredding up and down the Alps.

Any attempt to distil down further inevitably runs into confirmation bias as we seek to justify our own purchases and diminish those of others.

I see it again and again here: mid vs hub, fat vs, er, non-fat, legal vs illegal spec, online vs LBS, brand name vs upstart, fluoro vs matte black, etc, etc.

Embrace the relativity folks! When it comes to personal preference there is no universal truth. You can only listen or ignore the experiences of others who have trod the path before.

 

[McCorby]

I would say those fears are unfounded and largely based on prejudice. Everyone has the ability to break the law - including on "legal" bikes. We don't create those situations, and its not really fair to accuse people of it.

What does this mean? That people don’t create situations where they break the law???

Whether you agree with the law or not, riding a vehicle on streets, paths and trails that it is not legal to be ridden on, even if you’re not speeding, is still breaking the law. I fear this behavior will lead to all ebikes being banned from these trails and paths because it will be much easier to enforce, versus authorities having to determine what is and isn’t legal.

If you don’t agree with the laws, then you should work with your elected officials to have them changed.

This thread has already gone off the rails, so I’ll refrain from speaking further on this legality topic.