What The Europeans Have Planned For The EMTB World

[reed scott]

 

[iabob]

I really like the focus on natural feel. Even better eMTB modes I think is where it’s at. But this nonesense of having too much power, reminds me of a conversation with a clueless motorcycle engineer that thought touring bikes already have more than enough power. Who buys anything, e-bike, motorcycle, car...and has buyers remorse because it’s just too powerful? A little more is always just enough.

 

[McCorby]

I really like the focus on natural feel. Even better eMTB modes I think is where it’s at. But this nonesense of having too much power, reminds me of a conversation with a clueless motorcycle engineer that thought touring bikes already have more than enough power. Who buys anything, e-bike, motorcycle, car...and has buyers remorse because it’s just too powerful? A little more is always just enough.

Sorry, but I’ll agree to disagree!
There is such a thing as too much power. More power does no good if it’s not manageable and you can’t get it to the ground (I.e. traction limited).

Also, for some us, weight and range are factors that also need to be taken into consideration. More power doesn’t come for free....

 

[iabob]

Sorry, but I’ll agree to disagree!
There is such a thing as too much power. More power does no good if it’s not manageable and you can’t get it to the ground (I.e. traction limited).

Theoretically true. Realistically....well when was the last time you traded in a vehicle because it was too powerful? When was the last time Ford or Chevy ditched the top of the line Mustang or Camaro because they didn’t sell and everyone wanted the V-6 base model? Ever see Ford, Chevy, or Dodge advertise their trucks are better because they have less torque than the overpowered competition? So to e-bikes, if my Bosch speed line comes with 63 nM of torque how many riders will test a 2022 model with 80 nM and not like it better?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I know this is going to come across as snobbish and disrespectful to some folks but I will go ahead and share my opinion.
People who think they need 1500W of power have never really done proper mountain biking. They may be physically heavier or have lost some power due to old age and aching knees or just want moto-cross bikes without having to pay for license/registration.

More power is not necessarily a better thing, especially for MTB riding. On tight technical terrains, you need precise control and a very smooth delivery of power not an outburst of power.
For an unskilled MTB rider, too much power can be dangerous at times.

There are a lot of folks here who think untamed power is a nuisance on an E-bike and would want to ride Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano powered bikes, and then there are other sets of bikers, who think anything less than 1500W is not good and would not consider any of those motors.

 

[McCorby]

Theoretically true. Realistically....well when was the last time you traded in a vehicle because it was too powerful? When was the last time Ford or Chevy ditched the top of the line Mustang or Camaro because they didn’t sell and everyone wanted the V-6 base model? Ever see Ford, Chevy, or Dodge advertise their trucks are better because they have less torque than the overpowered competition? So to e-bikes, if my Bosch speed line comes with 63 nM of torque how many riders will test a 2022 model with 80 nM and not like it better?

Really not apples to apples in my opinion. We’re talking bicycles, not cars after all.
For climbing a steep technical trail, I’ll choose a lightweight bike with a mid-drive that puts out “only” 85Nm of very usable torque versus an overweight bike with something like a Bafang Ultra any day of the week.

 

[McCorby]

More power is not necessarily a better thing, especially for MTB riding. On tight technical terrains, you need precise control and a very smooth delivery of power not an outburst of power.
For an unskilled MTB rider, too much power can be dangerous at times.

I would argue that this holds true for experienced mountain bikers as well.

 

[Dallant]

Theoretically true. Realistically....well when was the last time you traded in a vehicle because it was too powerful? When was the last time Ford or Chevy ditched the top of the line Mustang or Camaro because they didn’t sell and everyone wanted the V-6 base model? Ever see Ford, Chevy, or Dodge advertise their trucks are better because they have less torque than the overpowered competition? So to e-bikes, if my Bosch speed line comes with 63 nM of torque how many riders will test a 2022 model with 80 nM and not like it better?

Well, the Dodge Viper was discontinued largely because they had so much power but didn’t improve handling.

 

[FlatSix911]

I know this is going to come across as snobbish and disrespectful to some folks but I will go ahead and share my opinion.
People who think they need 1500W of power have never really done proper mountain biking. They may be physically heavier or have lost some power due to old age and aching knees or just want moto-cross bikes without having to pay for license/registration.

More power is not necessarily a better thing, especially for MTB riding. On tight technical terrains, you need precise control and a very smooth delivery of power not an outburst of power.
For an unskilled MTB rider, too much power can be dangerous at times.

There are a lot of folks here who think untamed power is a nuisance on an E-bike and would want to ride Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano powered bikes, and then there are other sets of bikers, who think anything less than 1500W is not good and would not consider any of those motors.

I agree that too much power is a problem and will limit control... smooth delivery of useable power and modulation is the key!
This is precisely why the mid-drive motor/battery systems from Bosch, Brose, Shimano, and Yamaha dominate the EMTB market.

 

[Haystacks]

The name to watch out for this coming season out of Europe in terms of competition Emtb bikes is GASGAS. A few laughs were had when someone brought them up on here earlier this year but i'm certain the comp teams won't be laughing at the prospect of riding against them, they specialise in making competition trials, moto x and enduro motorbikes, they have made some of the finest rides for the past 40 years nearly. What will also be interesting will be their pricing; i can buy a brand new gasgas trials bike for about £5-6k

 

[Dallant]

I want lighter, quieter, tougher, safer. And cheaper, like by half!
I want flat proof tires that are great to ride on.
I don’t really need faster. Nor do I need much more technology in the form of ebike controllers. Pretty sure the Nyon would give me everything I need.

 

[iabob]

Really not apples to apples in my opinion. We’re talking bicycles, not cars after all.
For climbing a steep technical trail, I’ll choose a lightweight bike with a mid-drive that puts out “only” 85Nm of very usable torque versus an overweight bike with something like a Bafang Ultra any day of the week.

Now it sounds like you are agreeing with me. You want the 85 Nm version, not the 63 Nm equipped. So the question becomes assuming the motors keep getting smoother, quieter, and lighter...if the batteries continue to hold more electricity in smaller lighter batteries...in a few years do you ride the newest version of your bike that’s 6 lbs lighter and has a 92 Nm motor and say, “that’s too much power” or do you think it’s an improvement?

 

[McCorby]

Now it sounds like you are agreeing with me. You want the 85 Nm version, not the 63 Nm equipped. So the question becomes assuming the motors keep getting smoother, quieter, and lighter...if the batteries continue to hold more electricity in smaller lighter batteries...in a few years do you ride the newest version of your bike that’s 6 lbs lighter and has a 92 Nm motor and say, “that’s too much power” or do you think it’s an improvement?

Lol, I give! Enjoy your powah!

Edit: I’m curious, have you ridden a truly technical mountain bike trail?

Do you think twice the power would help or hinder this professional rider?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Edit: I’m curious, have you ridden a truly technical mountain bike trail?

Repeating that question.
85 Nm in the granny gear makes an e-MTB do a wheelie. An e-MTBer does not typically go into maximum assistance levels.

 

[reed scott]

Lol, I give! Enjoy your powah!

Edit: I’m curious, have you ridden a truly technical mountain bike trail?

Do you think twice the power would help or hinder this professional rider?

I'm fine with those who are into tough technical single track riding choosing the proper bike for their pursuits. But I warrant they are no more than half the serious bike riding population. Others have differing wants and needs when it comes to the bikes they want to ride and how and where they ride them. The first group are not the REAL bikers. And neither is the second. Thank goodness we can all have what we want. I do not disparage the first group and I do not look upon my group as superior in any way. Let us all respect each other.

 

[reed scott]

I want lighter, quieter, tougher, safer. And cheaper, like by half!
I want flat proof tires that are great to ride on.
I don’t really need faster. Nor do I need much more technology in the form of ebike controllers. Pretty sure the Nyon would give me everything I need.

I keyed in on your desire to see better bikes half as expensive as they presently are. The only way that could ever happen is through competitive market forces. In these times of scarcity that cannot happen. Scarcity which may have no end on the horizon and probably well beyond. It doesn't help that so few component makers dominate the market. They deserve their positions as they have spent decades perfecting their products. This too could change only very slowly. Not a lot of money to be made in derailleurs, forks, shocks and brakes. Personally I know I do not need top of the line race equipment. It would help to reach better prices if more people would realize this.

 

[McCorby]

I'm fine with those who are into tough technical single track riding choosing the proper bike for their pursuits. But I warrant they are no more than half the serious bike riding population. Others have differing wants and needs when it comes to the bikes they want to ride and how and where they ride them. The first group are not the REAL bikers. And neither is the second. Thank goodness we can all have what we want. I do not disparage the first group and I do not look upon my group as superior in any way. Let us all respect each other.

Have I disrespected someone? How so?

Isn’t this thread about “real” EMBTs, not overpowered “loophole” wannabe motocross bikes? The title and your video gave me that impression anyway. If I’m wrong, I apologize and will move on.

 

[reed scott]

Have I disrespected someone? How so?

Isn’t this thread about “real” EMBTs, not overpowered “loophole” wannabe motocross bikes? The title and your video gave me that impression anyway. If I’m wrong, I apologize and will move on.

You are correct but I was also addressing the general schism that often comes up on this site involving sometimes elitist attitudes.

 

[McCorby]

You are correct but I was also addressing the general schism that often comes up on this site involving sometimes elitist attitudes.

I have seen no sign of elitism in this thread. So why try to create something that’s not evident?

 

[reed scott]

I have seen no sign of elitism in this thread. So why try to create something that’s not evident?

I'm not creating anything. It exists. But again you are correct it is not evident on this particular thread. So what?