Shifting a Class II - Mid-Drive

[Jeremy McCreary]

As others have mentioned, judge your shifts ahead of time. I'll add, as a habit, learn regardless of riding how to let off the pedals then shift. As long as you slow the pedaling where you have no load on the crank/gears, then shift while still pedaling, it will become natural. Try not to lose too much in the cadence you have going. You can feasible slow your pedal enough to shift and still maintain the cadence rpm of the motor. It takes practice. Just don't shift under load. You will hear and feel it.

Excellent advice! The habit of letting up a bit while shifting is an easy one to develop, and short of racing, no harm in doing on every shift. Remember, air resistance can also load up your drivetrain. So also good to let up when downshifting in stiff headwinds or upshifting on fast descents.

As for timing on climbs, shift well before think you need to. Better to speed up your cadence early than to get caught in way too low a cadence later on.

 

[m@Robertson]

I had a chance this morning to do a grocery run and this thread was fresh enough in my mind I was able to pay attention to how I got thru it. Fully loaded, I went up the hill turning in from Wave St., near sea level, to the top of the hill via Hoffman Ave. There are a slew of slope changes from bottom to top, ranging from pretty shallow to really steep. Especially a short segment near the top.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It all went down according to the plan laid out above. I shifted down a gear further than I needed, but since I was loaded with groceries, the penalty for not shifting low enough is way worse than having to spin the crankarms a little faster and ride a little slower. On the steep segments I ramped up the PAS, and when it leveled out I ramped it down. In a couple places so it was almost off.

Also, I did not initially shift down low enough. When you get to intersections, the road levels out by design as you cross the cross-street. I used that flat segment to shift down another notch. Always when shifting I did the stutter-step method where I stop pedaling for a moment to completely unload the drivetrain. Then click shift one gear only (I shifted twice before I got to the other side). Then start pedaling so the low power ramp-up from stop carries the chain up to the next cog gently. But that was at the first intersection from the bottom and no shifts from then on.

I was loaded pretty heavy. This was on the way to the store but on the way back, the two bins were full with a little overflow to the panniers. Stress on drivetrain can be severe when this thing has to take a hill.

 

[Imchud]

Your bike will hate you a lot less if you do your shifting all in advance of the hill and never shift in either direction once on it. Something to bear in mind is you have a motor now so the need to row thru the gears to get just the right ratio while in a climb is a lot less than on an analog bike. For example, with motor assist now vs. days of yore I can just change my effort level (more effort or less effort) and maintain cadence for a short stretch thanks to a changed assist level. That is just not possible on a purely human-powered bike. If the hill steepens I would have to downshift a bike. But on an ebike I can go from '3' to '4' and change nothing else. And if it levels off a tad maybe I drop back to '2'.

@Catalyzt and a couple of others mentioned overdoing it initially. Shift to a lower gear than you think you will need. I do this as well. When I said to fuggeddaboud speed this is what I was doing a poor job of articulating: Let the speed drop waaaay down by going into a too-high gear. You end up going slowly but easily (so much so you may need to back way off on the assist level). Go up the same hill a couple three times and you'll know in advance where you want your gear to be, but during your initial uncertainty phase you will err on the safe side. Erring on the other side and being in a too-high gear is a lot messier. What you want is a gear that is mechanically able to easily handle the hill, so all you have to do from there is click PAS levels up or down.

As others have mentioned there are ways to further fudge this, like with a momentary burst of effort to gain enough speed you can lift your pedal effort and shift before you run out of momentum. The easy, just-learning way is to shift at the bottom just before the hill. Get fancy later.

Yeah this is a tool that is the proverbial game changer.


What I found is that, since the hub motor is powering the bike thru the axle/hub and it couldn't care less about the drivetrain (and is in fact disconnected from it due to an internal clutch) you can shift to your heart's content with no restrictions of any kind. Do your worst. If anything the hub motor in the mix makes shifting less consequential to any sort of potential drivetrain stress.

Today was a good day... sunny and about 60/deg. I took my new Mid-Drive out to practice shifting on hills. I got more confident as I was up and down the same hill about 5 times testing things out. But I had to call it quits because my knee was on fire. Also, I do find that I am overthinking things... (imagine that), I just don't want to screw anything up or break something. As I get more ride time in, I know it will become second nature when riding. & climbing hills. Thanks for all your input

 

[Imchud]

I had a chance this morning to do a grocery run and this thread was fresh enough in my mind I was able to pay attention to how I got thru it. Fully loaded, I went up the hill turning in from Wave St., near sea level, to the top of the hill via Hoffman Ave. There are a slew of slope changes from bottom to top, ranging from pretty shallow to really steep. Especially a short segment near the top.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It all went down according to the plan laid out above. I shifted down a gear further than I needed, but since I was loaded with groceries, the penalty for not shifting low enough is way worse than having to spin the crankarms a little faster and ride a little slower. On the steep segments I ramped up the PAS, and when it leveled out I ramped it down. In a couple places so it was almost off.

Also, I did not initially shift down low enough. When you get to intersections, the road levels out by design as you cross the cross-street. I used that flat segment to shift down another notch. Always when shifting I did the stutter-step method where I stop pedaling for a moment to completely unload the drivetrain. Then click shift one gear only (I shifted twice before I got to the other side). Then start pedaling so the low power ramp-up from stop carries the chain up to the next cog gently. But that was at the first intersection from the bottom and no shifts from then on.

I was loaded pretty heavy. This was on the way to the store but on the way back, the two bins were full with a little overflow to the panniers. Stress on drivetrain can be severe when this thing has to take a hill.

View attachment 165942

WOW... That's one hell of a serious scooter you got there. I've never seen anything like it. Do you use it as your everyday rider or just for hauling things? Also, how much weight can you carry with it? What kind of drive system does it have? Okay... sorry for all the questions but I find it so unique I just had to ask about it. BTW, love the Photo.

 

[Art Deco]

My experience is with torque sensing mid drives, but I've found that I can downshift on hills... just not under load, and I always try to shift a little sooner than I 'need' to.

Thus, before getting to the hill, I downshift to whatever gear seems one or two gears too low-- in advance.

Once I'm on the hill and ascending, I continue downshifting, but only while "ghost pedaling" briefly-- e.g., pedaling not quite fast enough to keep up with the wheels and motor, losing just a little momentum for a second. The telltale is, if I hear a loud CLANK or chiming sound from the gears, and I feel a lot of feedback from the drivetrain, I know I did it wrong.

If I hear just a little click, and there's no feedback from the pedals, I know I did it right.

Is that what everyone else is saying, or am doing something different?

You are apparently doing it correctly, since that is what I attempt to do. Sometimes it actually works out like that. Other times it's either turbo or walk mode for me...

 

[Art Deco]

WOW... That's one hell of a serious scooter you got there. I've never seen anything like it. Do you use it as your everyday rider or just for hauling things? Also, how much weight can you carry with it? What kind of drive system does it have? Okay... sorry for all the questions but I find it so unique I just had to ask about it. BTW, love the Photo.

When he says fully loaded ... ... he means it.

 

[Kayakguy]

I always shift in advance of the hill, which is why an automatic shifter doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I can see the hill coming up, but the shifter can't see it. That's how I maintain a steady cadence, by adjusting gearing and pas level as needed. Using gears in preference over PAS uses less battery power also. My throttle only works in PAS level 0, which is why I never use it.

 

[m@Robertson]

WOW... That's one hell of a serious scooter you got there. I've never seen anything like it. Do you use it as your everyday rider or just for hauling things? Also, how much weight can you carry with it? What kind of drive system does it have? Okay... sorry for all the questions but I find it so unique I just had to ask about it. BTW, love the Photo.

It is so practical that I use it as my daily driver whether I am hauling stuff or not. If you think on it, you drive your same car around with an empty passenger seat, back seat and trunk, but if for some reason you decide on the fly to stop at the store you can toss your stuff into the back seat etc. cuz the available space is always there. Same deal with this, plus the bike, known as a Bullitt, is known as sort of the sports car of this sort of bike, which is known as a bakfiets ("box bike" in Dutch). They are pretty common in Europe sold under a variety of different brands.

Typically my max load is about 130 lbs. Thats two bags of pea gravel (plus bike locks and tools) which I carry home quite a lot thanks to an extended project in my back yard. Overall I try and limit the bike to a total system load of around 500 lbs. It is rated for I think 440 but the manufacturer has made it clear the limitation on the factory bike is due to their wheels. I built mine frame up and I did much stronger wheels.

Its a 2wd bike, and my second, I liked the first one so much. The two are in different parts of the state as I split my residence in two locations for work. Wrote up the build for the white one here:

Larry vs Harry Bullitt Hill Hauler, Back-to-Front Part 1

A Bullitt has been my daily driver in all-flat terrain for more than two years. Now I need another for steep hills. Rather than just copy the original I will re-think my choices and make some cool …

talesontwowheels.com

 

[Imchud]

Before the rain set in today I took the bike to the Cleveland metro park system... they call it the Emerald Necklace. It is a connection of a very well-maintained park system that loops all around the city and through the suburbs. The entire loop is approximately 60 miles long, starting at Lake Erie and ending back at the Lake, all with paved biking paths through the woods, a bunch of overlooks, and different visitor centers throughout. I am so fortunate to have such a great resource in my backyard.

So, I hit one of the main branches of the loop today with big steep hills... I might add I had my gears picked when at the bottom of the hill and then increased my PAS from 1 to 4 and zoomed right up the hill. Well maybe not Zoomed, i started off at about 20mph, and 3/4 of the way up I was at 8 or 9, but it was a steady 8 or 9 until the top. so I was very pleased with the power it had... thanks for everyone's suggestions and Help!!!

 

[Imchud]

It is so practical that I use it as my daily driver whether I am hauling stuff or not. If you think on it, you drive your same car around with an empty passenger seat, back seat and trunk, but if for some reason you decide on the fly to stop at the store you can toss your stuff into the back seat etc. cuz the available space is always there. Same deal with this, plus the bike, known as a Bullitt, is known as sort of the sports car of this sort of bike, which is known as a bakfiets ("box bike" in Dutch). They are pretty common in Europe sold under a variety of different brands.

Typically my max load is about 130 lbs. Thats two bags of pea gravel (plus bike locks and tools) which I carry home quite a lot thanks to an extended project in my back yard. Overall I try and limit the bike to a total system load of around 500 lbs. It is rated for I think 440 but the manufacturer has made it clear the limitation on the factory bike is due to their wheels. I built mine frame up and I did much stronger wheels.

Its a 2wd bike, and my second, I liked the first one so much. The two are in different parts of the state as I split my residence in two locations for work. Wrote up the build for the white one here:

Larry vs Harry Bullitt Hill Hauler, Back-to-Front Part 1

A Bullitt has been my daily driver in all-flat terrain for more than two years. Now I need another for steep hills. Rather than just copy the original I will re-think my choices and make some cool …

talesontwowheels.com

OMG... I am so jealous...I just went through your write-ups on the builds for your cargo bikes... some truly amazing stuff. They look stout enough to go rock climbing with. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Art Deco]

Before the rain set in today I took the bike to the Cleveland metro park system... they call it the Emerald Necklace. It is a connection of a very well-maintained park system that loops all around the city and through the suburbs. The entire loop is approximately 60 miles long, starting at Lake Erie and ending back at the Lake, all with paved biking paths through the woods, a bunch of overlooks, and different visitor centers throughout. I am so fortunate to have such a great resource in my backyard.

So, I hit one of the main branches of the loop today with big steep hills... I might add I had my gears picked when at the bottom of the hill and then increased my PAS from 1 to 4 and zoomed right up the hill. Well maybe not Zoomed, i started off at about 20mph, and 3/4 of the way up I was at 8 or 9, but it was a steady 8 or 9 until the top. so I was very pleased with the power it had... thanks for everyone's suggestions and Help!!!

That should be a great ride on an ebike. It used to be too long and too rolling for acoustic bikes in the 10 speed era when I was there. Ohio is supposed to be ebike friendly now as well.

 

[Imchud]

That should be a great ride on an ebike. It used to be too long and too rolling for acoustic bikes in the 10 speed era when I was there. Ohio is supposed to be ebike friendly now as well.

They rated the Cleveland Metro Park system as one of the best in the country... I am not sure where that statistic originated from, but I can tell you it is a beautiful park system. They even have small snow plows they use to keep the bike paths cleared off in the winter. Even now, as the leaves are falling, they have equipment that travels the paths and clean off all the sticks and leaves. So kudos to the Metro Parks.

 

[Art Deco]

They rated the Cleveland Metro Park system as one of the best in the country... I am not sure where that statistic originated from, but I can tell you it is a beautiful park system. They even have small snow plows they use to keep the bike paths cleared off in the winter. Even now, as the leaves are falling, they have equipment that travels the paths and clean off all the sticks and leaves. So kudos to the Metro Parks.

Better known as the Emerald Necklace. It was said that city people once thought that was literally the border of Ohio since it's a similar shape on a map. Really the whole north coast should be great biking with a motor.

 

[mrgold35]

I have 2016 rear hub 750w fat tire Radrovers with throttle (around 4000 miles each). A rear hub is very easy to ride because it provides power to rear wheel independently of me applying power with the pedals. Any extra power your provide with the pedals provides less stress and more power to the rear hub motor. I sometimes get lazy and keep my Rover in 5th-7th gear and just use the throttle to start and up shift from there for desired cruising speed. I do the same with inclines and keep the Rover in upper gears and supplement with the throttle OR downshift 1-3 gears mid-stream for longer inclines to keep my pedal cadence around 50-70 rpms.

Just added a 1000w/160Nm mid-drive Himiway Cobra Pro with cadence sensor and motor cut-off with shifting gears. I had to learn to ride this ebike like a manual transmission compared to like an auto-trans with a rear hub. I have to ALWAYS shift gears with any speed change, down shift to the lowest gear at a stop, anticipate the right gear and shift before an incline (never mid-stream), and use the throttle exactly the same way as the mid-drive tq sensor to put less stress on the chain/gears. I'm still trying to commit the mid-drive shifting mechanics from conscious to subconscious. The mid-drive tq sensors does feel way more natural pedal feel compared to my cadence sensor mid-drive.

Going from a rear hub to mid-drive felt very close to me using having smartphone camera and upgrading to a DSLR camera in manual mode. DSLR/mid-drive can cost more, requires longer learning curve, less forgiving for mistakes; but, can produce way better performance envelope if you can utilizes the DSLR/mid-drive full capabilities as an average rider.