RadCity or Aventon Pace 500

[Deleted member 4210]

Also, check out Courts page here at EBR, where he defines the various classes of ebikes.

Class 3 he states " In America this class is often combined with Class 2 which produces bikes that have a throttle element".

In parts of Europe, where throttles are less common, most Class 3 electric bikes only offer pedal assist. (So yeah if you live in europe, you probably won't find many class 3 bikes with a throttle, which is what Bosch wants to shove down everyone's throat here, bc they don't produce a motor with a throttle)

So Court is saying it's combined, and in reality there is no law that prohibits an ebike from being both a Class 2 and Class 3, and legally and technically speaking, these laws cannot be written to exclude a throttle for Class 3. Bosch may be correct for what they say as it applies to Europe, but they are not saying what is correct for the US.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Aventon seems a better value but Rad power offers amazing customer service. So it is upto you which is more important for you.

Aventon offers great service, and if you are near a local Aventon dealer who offers their ebikes, you'll get great service and you won't have to be technical or even handy with tools, or stock parts or handle any phone spat whether something is warrantee related, nor have to send tons of emails or photos trying to describe the problem to a faraway oem.

If you are really good mechanically, don't mind doing all the work, good electronically, and good in general diagnosing problems then go for the Rad. (If you don't mind a weaker motor, slower acceleration and a really heavy ebike)

 

[AZOldTech]

Also, check out Courts page here at EBR, where he defines the various classes of ebikes.

Class 3 he states " In America this class is often combined with Class 2 which produces bikes that have a throttle element".

In parts of Europe, where throttles are less common, most Class 3 electric bikes only offer pedal assist. (So yeah if you live in europe, you probably won't find many class 3 bikes with a throttle, which is what Bosch wants to shove down everyone's throat here, bc they don't produce a motor with a throttle)

So Court is saying it's combined, and in reality there is no law that prohibits an ebike from being both a Class 2 and Class 3, and legally and technically speaking, these laws cannot be written to exclude a throttle for Class 3. Bosch may be correct for what they say as it applies to Europe, but they are not saying what is correct for the US.

That's why I wrote: "Maybe we should think of the Pace 500 as hybrid class between 2 & 3. ". Cause class 3 is clearly without a throttle.
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/radcity-or-aventon-pace-500.28690/page-2#post-204521

 

[TaraBara]

I know you wanting to compare Pace vs. Rad.... I would choose the Pace. Check out an Amego. They have it all in that price point. I have the Lafree E+2. It's $2k.... the Yamaha motor and LBS is well worth the little extra money.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

That's why I wrote: "Maybe we should think of the Pace 500 as hybrid class between 2 & 3. ". Cause class 3 is clearly without a throttle.
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/radcity-or-aventon-pace-500.28690/page-2#post-204521

I know your mind is having a hard time grasping the law. So here is how the industry designed it:
Class 3 only describes how you can get to 28 mph, which is via pedal assist only. It does not state anywhere in the law that the ebike is prohibited from having a throttle on it. If a throttle is on it,the throttle must comply with staying below 20 mph. In legalese terms they dont need to define that (eligibility of throttle) in that section of the law, because that is defined elsewhere. Lawyers do this sort of thing all the time in contract language.

People get confused by the wording that says the law prohibits use of a throttle to get to 28 mph. But that part of the law does not prohibit the use of a throttle to get to 20 mph.

The ebike firms with good lawyers understand this and label their ebikes with throttles, that can also go to 28 mph under pedal assist only as Class 3. The dumb firms that don't have good lawyers, limit their speed to 20 mph, while putting on motors and controllers that are capable of 28 mph, but then think they are being 'market cautious' by labeling as Class 2, but sneakily knowing that they allow a dealer or consumer to get a passcode that allows the user to up the limit beyond 20 mph that was programmed at the factory and shipped that way. They think that absolves them of liability. Ha. It just confuses the marketplace.

Lastly you cannot label a Class 3 ebike as also Class 2, because Class 2 specifically prohibits going above 20 mph under any circumstance, pedal assist or throttle.

The only part of the industry who tries to intentionally confuse customers, and disingenuously so, are the mid drive suppliers like Bosch, who cannot build a throttle into their mid drives. So they use the Class 3 and try to convince the market that they aren't allowed to have a throttle.

Bosch, Brose,Shimano, Yamaha would all have to completely re-design their mid drives to allow for a clutch to be able to add throttle capability. That would cost too much money, and eliminate their claims of lighter weight motors, etc. So instead they prefer to browbeat the marketplace with confusion and pray that consumers will buy their very expensive class 3 mid drives, over throttle capable hub drives, that are legal under Class 3 and much less expensive and in many cases more powerful and accelerate faster. They use 'fear' of being 'caught with a throttle', just like they have done heavily promoting Class 1.

 

[J.R.]

I know your mind is having a hard time grasping the law. So here is how the industry designed it:
Class 3 only describes how you can get to 28 mph, which is via pedal assist only. It does not state anywhere in the law that the ebike is prohibited from having a throttle on it. If a throttle is on it,the throttle must comply with staying below 20 mph. In legalese terms they dont need to define that (eligibility of throttle) in that section of the law, because that is defined elsewhere. Lawyers do this sort of thing all the time in contract language.

People get confused by the wording that says the law prohibits use of a throttle to get to 28 mph. But that part of the law does not prohibit the use of a throttle to get to 20 mph

Using your logic, a class 1 bike could have a throttle. It can not!

(1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

(2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer.

Logic of it is actually the opposite of what you suggest. Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttles. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. If class 3 allowed everything in class 2 with the addition of higher speed through pedal assist, it would simply state that.

You only quote people making money off selling or reviewing ebikes with throttles. No law makers or enforcers. I and others are fighting regulations now that exclude ebikes. I've spoken to both sides of this class law and throttles. I personally do not like the class laws and I don't have any issue with people wanting, using throttles. But both the intent and letter of the law for class 1 and 3 is no throttle.

 

[GregGritton]

One difference between the Rad City and the Aventon bikes is the controller. The Rad City has a power based controller, with the power input to the motor based on the PAS (power assist) setting. IIRC, the settings go something like:
PAS 1 - 50 watts
PAS 2 - 150 watts
PAS 3 - 300 watts
PAS 4 - 500 watts
PAS 5 - 750 watts
Thus, if you choose lower settings you will get a gradual acceleration. Sort of a gentle push.

From what I have read, the Aventon bikes seem to use a voltage based controller. This speed of a motor is proportional to its voltage. Thus, when you dial in a PAS level, you are effectively telling the motor what speed you want it to hit (or come close to). One characteristic of this type of controller is that you will get high acceleration at startup, with commensurate high power usage, even at low power assist levels such as PAS 1. You also get no motor power above the target speed.

Personally, I prefer RAD's style of controller (and perfer torque sensing even more), but others may have different preferences. In any case, it is worth trying the bikes out if you can.

 

[TumaloTed]

Since there's a lot of discussion of the various ebike classes here, has anyone with a Aventon Pace 500 class 3 bike been prevented from riding on any bike trails anywhere in the country?? Does anyone even check? Is stricter enforcement coming?

 

[Dewey]

Since there's a lot of discussion of the various ebike classes here, has anyone with a Aventon Pace 500 class 3 bike been prevented from riding on any bike trails anywhere in the country?? Does anyone even check? Is stricter enforcement coming?

That’s the argument I hear from doubtful pedal cyclists, that because law enforcement cannot tell the difference between a Class 3 (Pace 500) and a Class 2 (Pace 350) or Class 1 that no ebikes ought to be permitted on bike trails/multi use paths, but that’s what I thought the Class stickers were for? All the Class 3 owners I read about on here and other forums who ride on trails/MUPs emphasize they follow trail speed/etiquette and are mostly on roads anyway because they commute from further out but find themselves obliged to use the trail infrastructure closer in. I don’t think Class 3 will be permitted on trails/MUPs despite calls for regulating behavior rather than the bike but I assume Class 3 riders will remain under the radar provided they observe the current don’t ask don’t tell don’t act like a jerk and draw attention to yourself on the trails status quo.

 

[AZOldTech]

Using your logic, a class 1 bike could have a throttle. It can not!

Logic of it is actually the opposite of what you suggest. Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttles. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. If class 3 allowed everything in class 2 with the addition of higher speed through pedal assist, it would simply state that.

You only quote people making money off selling or reviewing ebikes with throttles. No law makers or enforcers. I and others are fighting regulations now that exclude ebikes. I've spoken to both sides of this class law and throttles. I personally do not like the class laws and I don't have any issue with people wanting, using throttles. But both the intent and letter of the law for class 1 and 3 is no throttle.

Could not have said it any better.

 

[phoenixtoohot]

I know I'm coming to this thread late, but the OP originally asked about the RadCity vs Aventon Pace 500. I almost pulled the trigger on purchasing 2 RadCity's when fortunately, I test rode the Aventon Pace 500. Wow, what a difference. The RadCity feels clunky and slow. The Pace 500 feels like a light, sports car ... very fast acceleration, agile and tight. Also, a big plus to me, is that with no electric assist, the Aventon feels like a regular bike, easy to pedal for long, long distances. The RadCity at level zero, feels like a tank dragging an anchor.

Anyway, I found the Aventon to be far superior to the RadCity, but I will have to say, Rad Power does an amazing job at marketing it's generic, white label bikes. And their support seems to be excellent too. For me, it's not even close, the Aventon "looks and feel" are far, far superior to the RadCity. Finally, when I first tried the RadCity, my wife and I were both surprised at how harsh the ride was over typical sidewalk joints and pavement ... very jolting through the seatpost. The front suspension fork was not effective ... I could see it bouncing up and down, but it didn't seem to offer any improvement in ride quality. The Aventon, by contrast, with no suspension, was far smoother than the RadCity. These are my thoughts, I know the RadCity gets good reviews, but I am so glad I tested the Aventon Pace 500, before I pulled the trigger on the RadCity's. Another good lesson in the importance of actual test rides over purchasing on specs and marketing hype alone.

 

[GregGritton]

The Pace 500 feels like a light, sports car ... very fast acceleration, agile and tight.

The sports car analogy is a good one. Like a sports car, the Aventon Pace 500 doesn't go light on energy usage. According to the tests at at electricbikereport.com, it used 21.7WHr/mile at maximum assist with average pedaling, giving it a range of 25.7 miles (with a 557WHr battery) and an average speed of 19.2mph. That is the highest energy consumption per mile of all the bikes I checked out on that site. By Contrast, RadCity used 16.5WHr/mile, again at maximum assist with average pedaling, with a range of 40.8 miles (with a 672WHr battery) and an average speed of 18.1mph. Meanwhile, the Aventon Pace 500's little brother, the 350, was thriftier, at 15.0WHr/mile, a range of 27.8 miles (with a smaller 418WHr battery), and an average speed of 16.7mph.

The result are at:
- https://electricbikereport.com/aventon-pace-500-electric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/
- https://electricbikereport.com/rad-...ric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/
- https://electricbikereport.com/aventon-pace-350-electric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/

 

[phoenixtoohot]

The sports car analogy is a good one. Like a sports car, the Aventon Pace 500 doesn't go light on energy usage. According to the tests at at electricbikereport.com, it used 21.7WHr/mile at maximum assist with average pedaling, giving it a range of 25.7 miles (with a 557WHr battery) and an average speed of 19.2mph. That is the highest energy consumption per mile of all the bikes I checked out on that site. By Contrast, RadCity used 16.5WHr/mile, again at maximum assist with average pedaling, with a range of 40.8 miles (with a 672WHr battery) and an average speed of 18.1mph. Meanwhile, the Aventon Pace 500's little brother, the 350, was thriftier, at 15.0WHr/mile, a range of 27.8 miles (with a smaller 418WHr battery), and an average speed of 16.7mph.

The result are at:
- https://electricbikereport.com/aventon-pace-500-electric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/
- https://electricbikereport.com/rad-...ric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/
- https://electricbikereport.com/aventon-pace-350-electric-bike-review-part-2-ride-range-test-video/

Very good info, thanks Greg. Maybe the DD motor is more efficient and/or the power vs voltage controller on the RadCity? That's why I prefer the ride and fun of the Aventon ...
and, If I run out of gas (juice), peddling home is just like a regular bike, so range is not nearly as critical as on the Radcity. If you run out of juice with the Radcity, it's like you are dragging a boat anchor home. Lol.

 

[Dewey]

The sports car analogy is a good one. Like a sports car, the Aventon Pace 500 doesn't go light on energy usage.

Yeah, of those 3 bikes the Aventon is the only Class 3 and I've read energy consumption increases dramatically past 24/25mph.

 

[AHicks]

Very good info, thanks Greg. Maybe the DD motor is more efficient and/or the power vs voltage controller on the RadCity? That's why I prefer the ride and fun of the Aventon ...
and, If I run out of gas (juice), peddling home is just like a regular bike, so range is not nearly as critical as on the Radcity. If you run out of juice with the Radcity, it's like you are dragging a boat anchor home. Lol.

Any mention of these 2 bikes needs to include the fact that a DD rear hub is NOT going to have the same performance as a gear driven rear hub. Period. They both have their own attributes, and should not be compared directly with no mention of the fact the drive systems are of totally different designs.

The comment regarding dragging a boat anchor is a tip of the hat to the fact you're talking about a direct drive equipped bike. That's just part of the design, and makes no difference if the motor is in a Rad City or anything else. It's inherent to the design of the direct drive hub - not the bike. Many/most riding DD hubs will say the effect is negligible, but it is there. It's NOT something you notice/feel when under even the least amount of power. The upside to the Direct Drive is the fact they have regen. Useless to a flat lander, but a very viable option to somebody frequenting a hilly area. The DD hub's efficiency at higher speeds makes them attractive to commuters, especially a flat land commuter.

The gear drive IS much peppier at lower speeds. No surprise you compare that performance with a sports car. With a 5:1 set of gears internally (vs. no moving parts in a DD rear hub), why wouldn't it be noticeably peppier? They're all about the ability to get the bike moving quickly, and they're very efficient while doing that. The downside here is they run out of steam (and efficiency) at higher speeds. They're very desirable in a hilly environment. Oh, and they coast well. If pedaling unassisted is something you plan on frequently, the gear (or mid) drive will work better as there is no motor drag like that found in direct drive - again a hub design attribute and nothing to do with the bike's design.

The point here is that IMHO, you need to decide which of the hub designs suits YOUR purposes better, then shop and compare bikes with that decision in mind.

Though you did admit someplace, that the Rad City ride was greatly enhanced when the tire pressure was set properly, I see you fail to mention that here. In any case, regarding your thoughts on the front fork, I'm wondering if anyone mentioned that they were adjustable as well? Myself, after riding both, I believe even a junk front suspension is better than no front suspension. The straight front end transfers a BUNCH more rattling and vibration directly to the handlebars.

 

[phoenixtoohot]

Yes, I agree, the RadCity would perform better if the Chinese had put a geared hub motor in it like they did with the RadRover. However my choice was between the City and Pace, and it's not practical to change out the hub motor from DD to geared. I much prefer the acceleration and sportiness of the Pace to the extra, powered range and sluggishness of the City. I had read about the differences in the DD and geared hub motors, but only after riding them did I realize how different they actually feel and perform. Of course, it's hard to isolate the effect of the lighter weight of the Pace also. I love the fact that, with no power, it's just as easy to pedal as my non-electric bikes. That means the effective range for me is unlimited. I would probably call Uber if I had to pedal the City home with no power. LOL. And I agree, you need to lower the pressure on the City from 80 psi max to around 45-50 psi (I'm 205 lbs and 6'1') to help the ride, but it still feels clunky and cumbersome IMHO. A decent seatpost suspension helps somewhat.

 

[AHicks]

I think the Chinese would willingly install any motor you ask them to put in, assuming you were willing to buy enough of them. That's not where the blame lies.

I think it's RAD that's missing the mark badly with the DD choice on the City as well, and it's not the only bike they're missing it on. The direct drive Rad Wagon comes to mind as well. That's another bike they've totally missed the mark on. I mean, c'mon. A heavy bike designed from the ground up to haul a load, with a DD motor? What are they thinking?

I suppose the people using the City to commute longer distances in relatively level areas would be fine. To live up to it name though, "City", I would imagine this is more about stop and go traffic, crossing busy roads/intersections, carrying a bag of groceries, etc. In all of those "City" applications, a gear drive will do a better job, and likely use less power doing it. My opinion, FWIW.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Simple suggestion on finding the right ebike: start with riding each brand you are comparing without any assist at all. See how it handles, how comfortable is your riding position, how confident you feel about your ability to control it, and what it will be like when you stop at intersections, ride up steep hills or down those same steep hills etc. See how it shifts and how hard it is to pedal or how easy it is to pedal. Different frame geometries can have a big impact.

THEN, evaluate how the assist is. My point is sometimes people are so infatuated with the novelty of the assist, they tend to overlook or not even notice compromises they are inadvertently making. The $100 price difference between a Rad city and Pace 500, for example of comparing two ebikes, is really neglible in the long term, and could even be a regret if the ebike proves to be not as 'comfortable' as you first imagined it would.

Again, using these two as an example, Between these two ebikes the weight difference is significant and one does ride a lot smoother, is much easier to pedal without assist in all gears, and just is much more comfortable all around due to its frame geometry and 5 frame sizes being available for a lot of height ranges, and arm length ranges, and ratios between those two fit aspects. Having a more nimble ebike, and one that is easier to lift onto a car bike rack carrier may be more important than you first think. Then if the ebike rolls better and is lighter, and has less drag unassisted, that means it will be less work for the motor and battery, and controller, and possibly even safer riding with easier acceleration for that hill, or outrunning that unexpected country dog, who is nipping at your heels.

The comparison is best done with a number of ebikes, as you might also learn about features or designs, or fit enhancers, that you didn't find out about from comparing just a couple of brands of ebikes during test rides, or just trying to evaluate them by on line specs or forum opinions from people who may be totally different weights, heights, strength, or even riding skill than you.

 

[phoenixtoohot]

All good points Mike. Unfortunately, for many, there is limited access to test ride e-bikes, especially in the under $2,500 price range. I would guess 75% of direct to consumer buyers purchase their e-bikes on-line, without a test ride. Not that I'm pushing Aventon, but they do have 50 plus locations in the U.S. where you can try them for free. That has the added benefit that the assembly, warranty and after sales support can be performed at these locations.

 

[Dewey]

To be fair Rad Power are trying to make it easier to test ride their bikes by posting locations on their website.