I'm assuming that most people are never going to commute more than say 40-50 miles a day on an ebike and it sure seems like with the next generation of batteries (the 21700 Tesla cells and projected solid state batteries a couple years out) will provide enough capacity to provide that range. I'm assuming that most riders are going to participate in the power delivery until the cadence is just too much. The higher speeds can still be supported via a very high cadence but the rider really will not be providing any significant power, but I believe a total capacity of 1wh-h to 2kw-h is addequate to provide this range on an ebike capable of assisted speed as high as 35mph. I don't believe this will be exotic tech .... it's not even that exotic now - a 52V / 40A direct drive hub motor drive system is not that extreme and some smaller geared hub motors can run at lower power and provide the necessary torque but I would argue they would not be as reliable long term as the gears are certain to need replacing occassionally (not a big deal if designed for simple replacements).
Power needed to eliminate need for gears....
- Thread starter Ken M
- Start date
I'm assuming that most people are never going to commute more than say 40-50 miles a day on an ebike and it sure seems like with the next generation of batteries (the 21700 Tesla cells and projected solid state batteries a couple years out) will provide enough capacity to provide that range. I'm assuming that most riders are going to participate in the power delivery until the cadence is just too much. The higher speeds can still be supported via a very high cadence but the rider really will not be providing any significant power, but I believe a total capacity of 1wh-h to 2kw-h is addequate to provide this range on an ebike capable of assisted speed as high as 35mph. I don't believe this will be exotic tech .... it's not even that exotic now - a 52V / 40A direct drive hub motor drive system is not that extreme and some smaller geared hub motors can run at lower power and provide the necessary torque but I would argue they would not be as reliable long term as the gears are certain to need replacing occassionally (not a big deal if designed for simple replacements).
That statement sounds so absolute and certain, and yet it requires modification.
I can sustain 28 mph on my CrossCurrent S for as long as the battery holds out, and I'm old, fat, and have COPD.
It happens that I live in an area that has few hills, so that does make a difference. I wouldn't say "anyone" could do it, because I myself can't when I go to a locale such as my daughter's home which has lots of big hills.
And that's the problem with saying "anyone."
My context for using anyone was about how challenging it is to sustain 28mph on most class 3 ebikes - I was saying it's not easy which is why I feel most are underpowered. I believe the Crosscurrent S has a fairly powerful MAC geared hub motor which is capable of significant assist at 28mph so I'm sure it's an excellent example of just how capable some ebikes are at achieving reasonable commute speeds without exotic tech. I would still prefer to give up a little efficiency for the improved reliability of the direct drive hub motor at higher speeds - I just believe the simplicity will win out vs having plastic gears to multiply the motor torque. Direct Drive hub motors can achieve efficiencies over 80% when spinning at speeds over 20-25mph so there really isn't any advantage of a geared hub drive at those speeds. From 0 to say 15mph a geared hub motor will have better performance but as a rider I will do OK providing most of the power to get to 15mph so don't really need that benefit.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Mark M, unless you can do what you envision legally it can’t be done legally. This is no cop out because I have a DD hub bike that can maintain 30 mph (@30wh/mi) for as much battery as is on board with the 150” gear to provide enough human input to prop up the motor.
What you are describing is classified as a MoPed and comes under Federal guidelines via the DOT. Find your state here:
https://www.dmv.org/other-types.php
You may not agree with this but it is the reality of the situation.
What you are describing is classified as a MoPed and comes under Federal guidelines via the DOT. Find your state here:
https://www.dmv.org/other-types.php
You may not agree with this but it is the reality of the situation.
The federal definition for a ebike to be classified as a bike does not state a top assist speed so long as not exclusively powered by throttle (there is no minimum power level defined for a rider so ghost pedaling meets the letter of the law). Here's a primer:
At the federal level, a 2002 law enacted by Congress, HB 727, amended the Consumer Product Safety Commission definition of e-bikes. The law defined a low-speed electric bicycle as “A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.” The federal law permits e-bikes to be powered by the motor alone (a “throttle-assist” e-bike), or by a combination of motor and human power (a “pedal-assist” e-bike).
Significantly, the federal law only specifies the maximum speed that the e-bike can travel under motor power alone. It does not provide a maximum speed when the bicycle is being propelled by a combination of human and motor power, which is how e-bikes are predominantly ridden. The Consumer Product Safety Commission has clarified that the federal law does allow e-bikes to travel faster than 20 mph when using a combination of human and motor power.
States can not create their own definition of a "low speed electric bicycle" they can only define where bikes can be ridden but anyplace a bike is allowed to be ridden a "low speed electric bike" compliant with this federal law can be legally ridden. If a state wants to require insurance, registration, and license requirement on all bikes they are free to do but good luck with that as everyone will see that as just a money grab by state politicians and insurance company lobbyists.
The one huge loophole in the federal law was the statement "an electric motor of less than 750W." Any competent engineer can tell you why a static rating of a motor like that is nebulous. I can set up test conditions that would overheat a motor at 750W that can run at higher power levels at high speeds, so it could be specified to be a 750W motor.
I'm not really interested in debating all the nuances of ebike laws. I'm just interested in seeing ebikes become the viable transportation solution they can be. They are clean, quiet, efficient and healthy....we need all that more than we need to worry about mamby-pambies that get all freaked out if an ebike goes faster than 20mph. If you don't like bikes or ebikes going faster than 20mph you can always walk where they are not allowed to be used. If you ride an ebike that only assists to 20mph, I'll be safe and ring my bell as I pass on the left.
Keep in mind, I'm kind of joking around but my honest intent is to see more people getting out of cars to do some of the local commuting on ebikes and I think assist speeds faster than 20mph (without having to buy insurance, registrations and get licenses) is part of that happening.
I should add more information....
This federal law I just reference distinguishes, at the federal level, e-bikes that can travel 20 mph or less under motor power alone from motorcycles, mopeds and motor vehicles. But some states continue to have their own laws that categorize ebikes with mopeds and other motorized vehicles, require licensing, insurance, and registration, or do not enable them to be used on facilities such as bike lanes or multi-purpose trails. To clarify this conflict there will eventually be some legal cases that force clarification of both federal and state laws.
State traffic laws and vehicle codes remain the sole domain of states and state legislatures. In other words, the manufacturing and first sale of an e-bike is regulated by the federal government, but its operation on streets and bikeways lies within a state’s control. In other words, states can not establish when an ebike is equivalent to a bike. I don't think states can actually restrict a federally legal "low speed electric bike" from being used on an trail that is legal for a traditional bike. That is certainly a future legal challenge.
This federal law I just reference distinguishes, at the federal level, e-bikes that can travel 20 mph or less under motor power alone from motorcycles, mopeds and motor vehicles. But some states continue to have their own laws that categorize ebikes with mopeds and other motorized vehicles, require licensing, insurance, and registration, or do not enable them to be used on facilities such as bike lanes or multi-purpose trails. To clarify this conflict there will eventually be some legal cases that force clarification of both federal and state laws.
State traffic laws and vehicle codes remain the sole domain of states and state legislatures. In other words, the manufacturing and first sale of an e-bike is regulated by the federal government, but its operation on streets and bikeways lies within a state’s control. In other words, states can not establish when an ebike is equivalent to a bike. I don't think states can actually restrict a federally legal "low speed electric bike" from being used on an trail that is legal for a traditional bike. That is certainly a future legal challenge.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Ken, I like the idea of the evolving e-bike as well. More efficient, better batteries, etc. BUT you have to realize not all are interested in long distance commutes of 20+ miles, at speeds of 30+ mph.
I like the way local governments are now becoming more aware of the demand for safer places and procedures for riding a bike more safely. That being forced to run in a 36" bike path next to traffic moving 40-50mph may not be the best plan.
I think the growing e-bike popularity we are seeing right now is proof of the fact that many folks, maybe the majority, are happy with the way things are right now from a legal standpoint.
Though I often don't agree with your standpoints, I have to tip my hat to somebody willing to change things to conform closer to what he feels is the "way it should be".
I like the way local governments are now becoming more aware of the demand for safer places and procedures for riding a bike more safely. That being forced to run in a 36" bike path next to traffic moving 40-50mph may not be the best plan.
I think the growing e-bike popularity we are seeing right now is proof of the fact that many folks, maybe the majority, are happy with the way things are right now from a legal standpoint.
Though I often don't agree with your standpoints, I have to tip my hat to somebody willing to change things to conform closer to what he feels is the "way it should be".
fitzmotor
New Member
In Ca, the laws were changed for the better, at least for me and my class 2 capable bike, I run around legal on the streets, I go anywhere a regular bicycle can go and I have the ability to go off road at a different setting. I have some friends in law enforcement, they say that technology is moving so fast on ebikes, that it is difficult know what is what and to try to enforce the laws, they look at us as regular bicycles unless they actually clock you at a high speed, they are most concerned about safety, not a few miles over the limit on a bike you have no idea what class it is. (that's their words not mine)
AB 1096: Electric Bicycles
This is the law that defines electric bicycles as those with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts. It also creates three classes of electric bicycles based on their motor speed and level of electric assist. Electric bikes subsequently fell into classes 1, 2, and 3.
Class 1 eBike
A Class 1 eBike, or low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycles, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
Class 2 eBike
Class 2 eBikes, or low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle, are equipped with motors that can exclusively propel the bicycle, but that cannot provide assistance when the bike reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
Class 3 eBike
A Class 3 eBike, or speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 28 mph. Operators of Class 3 e-bikes must be 16 or older and wear a helmet. Class 3 e-bikes are prohibited from Class I multi-use bike paths unless specifically authorized by a local ordinance.
AB 1096: Electric Bicycles
This is the law that defines electric bicycles as those with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts. It also creates three classes of electric bicycles based on their motor speed and level of electric assist. Electric bikes subsequently fell into classes 1, 2, and 3.
Class 1 eBike
A Class 1 eBike, or low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycles, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
Class 2 eBike
Class 2 eBikes, or low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle, are equipped with motors that can exclusively propel the bicycle, but that cannot provide assistance when the bike reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
Class 3 eBike
A Class 3 eBike, or speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 28 mph. Operators of Class 3 e-bikes must be 16 or older and wear a helmet. Class 3 e-bikes are prohibited from Class I multi-use bike paths unless specifically authorized by a local ordinance.
Ahicks,
Thanks. I'm trying to pragmatic and rational on this subject because I think it's important. I'm not advocating classifying electric motorcycles as bikes, but when at 57 I can get on my old traditional road bike and ride at 30mph for a reasonable distance (obviously with some effort) I can't help but think that limiting assist on most ebikes to 20mph is ideal policy when it seems cities are in great need of solutions to reduce gridlock.
The assist speed I'm advocating of around 55kph/35mph is still in current realm of bikes - it's fairly easy to calculate the cadence needed for those speeds and current road bikes have the gearing for human power at those speeds. I'm just advocating making it easier to sustain those speeds so ebikes are "better" transportation solutions for those that may need to do a 20 mile commute. Just because an ebike can obtain a speed of 35mph doesn't mean everyone is going to doing that speed all the time on that bike (no more than someone with a 250mph sports car rides thru their neighborhood at that speed).
The technology is pretty much already here to produce a 60lb ebike with robust tires (like the Schwalbe Moto Xs) that can safely achieve a top speed upwards of 35mph that is nothing like moped or motorcycle. It can still have the rider engaged with proper gearing and I'm a huge advocate of the health benefits that come from actually engaging in the riding experience (I lost 40lbs my first year of commuting on an ebike).
I don't want everyone to think I'm just some hot rod idiot trying to bypass DMV and insurance companies, but one of the best things about bikes is that they remain economical because those COSTS are not forced on riders via regulations. Again the need for viable human scale transportation is more important than regulations that give DMV and insurance companies another revenue stream.
I have no idea how law enforcement can determine if the speed is due to the rider or the motor so unless there is a speed limit on the path what is the real justification for stopping a biker they feel is going faster than a subjective safe limit. This is why I'm a believer in path speed limits.
Also you may want to investigate if the Mondo Footloose ebike is sold in California legally. It's an ebike with pedals but they only run a generator so I don't think they comply with the traditional sense of "fully operable pedals." They fact they are being sold and ridden pretty much country wide has establish legal precedence that "fully operable pedals" is dubious at best. If that were the letter of the law, then you could not continue to ride your class 2 ebike if you broke the chain. Think about that for a second.
I'm not even going into the nebulous nature of specifying a max motor power of 750W. There is a lot of technical information on the internet as to why that has little merit.
Similar threads
