Is a full-face DH helmet for certain e-bike riding activities overkill or a good idea?

[steve mercier]

Toomanycats ,how many miles have you put on your bike now?

@steve mercier you need to get adapters of course; I'm not entirely sure about fork clearance, I'd have to take a look, that's a good point.

Yes and also the amount of stopping pressure may be too great for the fork to bear ? I am not an engineer but my son is. The LBS told me that 203 was the max these Shimano stx /deore xt could be increased to and the store that sold me the bike said that if you change the fork you void your warranty...so I dunno how long you have had your bike but anyway I am satisfied with the 203 Ice techs .

 

[bombadero]

Weird there are a lot of similar threads in other forums online about the notion that too big a rotor can break the fork, but little actual data and few anecdotes of it actually happening, mostly physical theory. I can find no information on Fox's site about disc rotor limitations for the Fox Float 34 E-bike fork or any other of their forks.

For instance, here's one:

https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/too-large-rotor-fork-630895.html

Here's a better one, it's a deep read but should be elucidating:

https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/forks-rotor-size-726612.html

 

[Roxlimn]

I currently use a Lazer Revolution ASTM-certified full face trail helmet. It is rated for downhill action, but it's really a trail helmet, so it's not too hot. The Fox Proframe is of the same helmet type. There's been a lot of helmets like this recently. I'd look into the non-remove able ones like the Proframe. I could remove the chin bar on the Lazer, but I just don't. I just use a different half face helmet if I feel like I'll just be going around the corner for a coffee.

 

[bombadero]

So I pulled the trigger on a helmet. I splurged a bit, although it was research-based splurging. It originally came down to the 100% Status, Fox Proframe and Bell Full-9. After looking into the Status more, I discovered that while conforming to most standards, it isn't MIPS, so that was a deal-breaker for me. I really didn't want to spend the money on a carbon helmet, but I looked then at the 100% Aircraft, which is $150 more, but MIPS and with better reviews regarding its comfort level and ventilation. I ruled out the Bell Full-9, which is also a very good helmet - all of these are great helmets - because it doesn't conform to the AS/NZS 2063:2008 standard. It does conform to both the BMX and DH ASTM standards as well as CPSC and EN-1078, but after looking into the AS/NZS standard I learned that the requirements for masses impacting the helmet and the safety strap remaining clasped are much more stringent under that standard than other ASTM. The Bell is supposed to be very comfortable, but also kind of hot on warm days. I also looked into the Leatt v3.0 19.3 DH helmet, thank you @PDoz - it's also a really great helmet but I didn't like the ventilation.

So that left the Fox Proframe and the 100% Aircraft. I immediately preferred the Fox, mainly because it is $150 cheaper. I also liked the ventless design in the chin guard and the bold graphics with a matte finish. A couple of things bothered me about the Proframe, though. One was that certain race circuit owners won't allow it on their tracks, even though it technically conforms to the same standards as more conventional helmets. That got me thinking about an accident with those big open holes around it. In all likelihood, it would be fine in 99% of crashes. However, I feel there is a chance that broken glass or sharp metal bits could protrude into that area in certain crashes in an urban environment. Riders also mentioned choking on dust and small rocks when trail riding behind other riders. Another issue that came up in multiple reviews was that the pad in the front is too short to prevent the MIPS system from scraping uncomfortably on their foreheads. For $250, I expect issues like that to be worked out.

So... yeah, I can't believe I spent $400 plus tax and shipping on a helmet, but I got the 100% Aircraft helmet. Reviewers consistently said it was very comfortable, and it also has removable pads like the Bell Full-9; it is very well ventilated so it stays cool in warm weather and ascents, and conforms to AS/NZS standards like the Fox Proframe; but it also has a fully protected chin guard; and it has MIPS. It was the only helmet that checked all of the boxes I wanted checked that wasn't either a $500+ pro helmet or a moto helmet. I probably won't need them in the city, but I also picked up some matching goggles (their goggles are surprisingly affordable compared to their helmets), which I will use for trail riding, or possibly on rainy days or a steep descent on a street where I think I might want full face protection. There is some nasty road hash on the streets of San Francisco, as many streets never get swept by a street cleaner (I've actually been hit in the face with rocks and small debris while riding in the city). I'll wear my good old Casco Roadster for more leisurely rides, on the trike, et cetera. Although for fast downhill, I might still wear the 100% on the trike, I'm debating that. Rolling the trike at those speeds wouldn't be pretty. Then again, you probably wouldn't impact the ground too hard or flip over the trike, it would mostly be a lot of sliding on asphalt. Part of the reason I got the Casco was for extra eye protection on the trike, since you're much closer to the road - I also got puffed in the face by exhaust from a motorcycle accelerating from a stop once.

Thanks for all the feedback, and keep the chat up, it has been very educational for me. I researched the Casco mainly for its excellent visor and ventilation; I didn't know anything about helmet standards before this.

Attached is some gear porn of the model/style I purchased. I timidly got the matching goggles. You should check them out if you are in the market for some, as unlike the helmets they are affordable, most riders report they don't fog when worn over glasses, and they come in a blinding array of styles. I'm kind of kicking myself I didn't get one of the crazier styles (and they have even more styles on Amazon than on their website). This particular model is called Accuri - they have another otg model and a few others besides. I've attached the style I got plus a few of my other favorites. They all kind of remind of diving equipment, and the 1990's.

 

[Toomanycats]

Toomanycats ,how many miles have you put on your bike now?

Yes and also the amount of stopping pressure may be too great for the fork to bear ? I am not an engineer but my son is. The LBS told me that 203 was the max these Shimano stx /deore xt could be increased to and the store that sold me the bike said that if you change the fork you void your warranty...so I dunno how long you have had your bike but anyway I am satisfied with the 203 Ice techs .

I’ve owned it since the end of February, and Id say about 600. I’m retired, and ride an average of 10 miles a day, 4 or 5 days a week, with one long ride per week that Ive gradually increased to 20 miles. E biking is addicting.

 

[Toomanycats]

So I pulled the trigger on a helmet. I splurged a bit, although it was research-based splurging. It originally came down to the 100% Status, Fox Proframe and Bell Full-9. After looking into the Status more, I discovered that while conforming to most standards, it isn't MIPS, so that was a deal-breaker for me. I really didn't want to spend the money on a carbon helmet, but I looked then at the 100% Aircraft, which is $150 more, but MIPS and with better reviews regarding its comfort level and ventilation. I ruled out the Bell Full-9, which is also a very good helmet - all of these are great helmets - because it doesn't conform to the AS/NZS 2063:2008 standard. It does conform to both the BMX and DH ASTM standards as well as CPSC and EN-1078, but after looking into the AS/NZS standard I learned that the requirements for masses impacting the helmet and the safety strap remaining clasped are much more stringent under that standard than other ASTM. The Bell is supposed to be very comfortable, but also kind of hot on warm days. I also looked into the Leatt v3.0 19.3 DH helmet, thank you @PDoz - it's also a really great helmet but I didn't like the ventilation.

So that left the Fox Proframe and the 100% Aircraft. I immediately preferred the Fox, mainly because it is $150 cheaper. I also liked the ventless design in the chin guard and the bold graphics with a matte finish. A couple of things bothered me about the Proframe, though. One was that certain race circuit owners won't allow it on their tracks, even though it technically conforms to the same standards as more conventional helmets. That got me thinking about an accident with those big open holes around it. In all likelihood, it would be fine in 99% of crashes. However, I feel there is a chance that broken glass or sharp metal bits could protrude into that area in certain crashes in an urban environment. Riders also mentioned choking on dust and small rocks when trail riding behind other riders. Another issue that came up in multiple reviews was that the pad in the front is too short to prevent the MIPS system from scraping uncomfortably on their foreheads. For $250, I expect issues like that to be worked out.

So... yeah, I can't believe I spent $400 plus tax and shipping on a helmet, but I got the 100% Aircraft helmet. Reviewers consistently said it was very comfortable, and it also has removable pads like the Bell Full-9; it is very well ventilated so it stays cool in warm weather and ascents, and conforms to AS/NZS standards like the Fox Proframe; but it also has a fully protected chin guard; and it has MIPS. It was the only helmet that checked all of the boxes I wanted checked that wasn't either a $500+ pro helmet or a moto helmet. I probably won't need them in the city, but I also picked up some matching goggles (their goggles are surprisingly affordable compared to their helmets), which I will use for trail riding, or possibly on rainy days or a steep descent on a street where I think I might want full face protection. There is some nasty road hash on the streets of San Francisco, as many streets never get swept by a street cleaner (I've actually been hit in the face with rocks and small debris while riding in the city). I'll wear my good old Casco Roadster for more leisurely rides, on the trike, et cetera. Although for fast downhill, I might still wear the 100% on the trike, I'm debating that. Rolling the trike at those speeds wouldn't be pretty. Then again, you probably wouldn't impact the ground too hard or flip over the trike, it would mostly be a lot of sliding on asphalt. Part of the reason I got the Casco was for extra eye protection on the trike, since you're much closer to the road - I also got puffed in the face by exhaust from a motorcycle accelerating from a stop once.

Thanks for all the feedback, and keep the chat up, it has been very educational for me. I researched the Casco mainly for its excellent visor and ventilation; I didn't know anything about helmet standards before this.

Attached is some gear porn of the model/style I purchased. I timidly got the matching goggles. You should check them out if you are in the market for some, as unlike the helmets they are affordable, most riders report they don't fog when worn over glasses, and they come in a blinding array of styles. I'm kind of kicking myself I didn't get one of the crazier styles (and they have even more styles on Amazon than on their website). This particular model is called Accuri - they have another otg model and a few others besides. I've attached the style I got plus a few of my other favorites. They all kind of remind of diving equipment, and the 1990's.

I actually had a migrating butterfly fly into one of my helmet vents while I was out on a ride. Definitely disconcerting. Goggles aren’t a bad idea. I’ve got various bits in my eye, especially with the massive pollen season we’ve had in Cali this year.

 

[MechaNut]

I invested in a White Giro Bexley. I'm extremely happy with it. All my riding is on roads, paved bike path, or hard-pack trail so it is the perfect helmet for what I do on a bike.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

edit: Also, to add, any amount of money spent on a great helmet is money well spent. It is one piece of equipment that you hope will never need to do its job, but I know far too many bike riders that are still here only because they bought a good helmet.

 

[bombadero]

@Toomanycats btw, I looked up your Raleigh Lore and I think I have a possible explanation as to why my R&M Homage is more stable at high speeds. I see three major differences: First, unlike the Lore, and also many R&M models, the Homage's rack is an integral part of the frame rather than bolt-on, and it's quite sturdy. It also has the normal stay geometry leading to the dropouts. So the rear wheel has a big chunk of metal sitting over it - chunky enough, btw that you can put 20 kilos directly on the rack. The stays themselves are also a little beefier. Second, the Homage has a rear suspension shock. And last and third, above the motor and around that shock R&M have constructed a sort of rigid box that holds everything together, that I suspect might be giving the frame added rigidity. They may have done that to compensate for it being a step-through frame, but in typical German fashion they applied so much engineering overkill to it that it might actually be more rigid than with a top tube. The downtube is also crazy thick - it's 2 3/4 inches wide and flat on 3 sides. I've attached a photo of the area of the bike I think makes it more stable.

 

[bombadero]

@MechaNut yeah, I see too many riders here with no helmet on - usually either yahoos on BMX bikes, or people on ride-share e-bikes. I think the ride-share bikes are great, definitely better than Uber or Lyft which add to traffic congestion, but I can't understand why none of these riders will invest in a basic road helmet. I'm wondering if bicycle injuries and fatalities have increased since they've rolled out. In Germany, I've read they have vending machines near the ride-share locations where you can buy a 5-euro helmet.

 

[bombadero]

Heh, I'm wrong, it's in Australia. Australia leading the way on helmet safety again, go ozzies.

http://bike-sharing.blogspot.com/2010/10/melbourne-gets-on-top-of-its-slow.html

Although, apparently, there are Schwalbe tube-vending machines in Germany:

https://www.wired.com/2009/06/bike-inner-tube-vending-machine/

And here's a bike repair vending machine in Brooklyn:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[PDoz]

Heh, I'm wrong, it's in Australia. Australia leading the way on helmet safety again, go ozzies.

http://bike-sharing.blogspot.com/2010/10/melbourne-gets-on-top-of-its-slow.html

Although, apparently, there are Schwalbe tube-vending machines in Germany:

https://www.wired.com/2009/06/bike-inner-tube-vending-machine/

And here's a bike repair vending machine in Brooklyn:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Glad to see the $5 helmets can be returned for a $3 refund - otherwise " selling" a helmet for $5 is just going to result in even more junk floating down our rivers.

Crazy that you can buy a helmet for less than a decent coffee.....but melbourne coffee is REALY good.

 

[bombadero]

Interesting, that reminds me of the brand of milk we buy here called Strauss - it comes in old-fashioned glass bottles that you turn in for a bottle deposit back to the grocery store, it's like $1.50 per bottle. With the bottle deposit, I think it's about $5-8 dollars for a half gallon. I don't know if I'll ever get to taste Melbourne coffee - perhaps some day. We're trying to cut our carbon foot print and a flight to Melbourne would eat up probably a ton or two of the roughly 12.8 tons we've saved over the past 3 years with the PV system on our roof. If only they had a paddle-wheel attachment for e-bikes...

 

[bombadero]

 

[IggyBBR]

Helmets are always a good idea for any eBike, because of how fast you can go compared to a normal bike. But a fullface at those speed

I recently had a small spill on a slippery dirt trail in a park here in San Francisco - bike went sideways, I smacked my head on some concrete at the entrance to the trail where it interfaces with the street off the curb. It's a Casco Roadster, a decent European helmet that meets EN-1078, although not ASTM or CE. However, none of that is relevant since my head impacted just above my left eyebrow on exposed skin, so the helmet did nothing. The full impact was on that one spot. I feel fine and got up and walked it off with some very light road rash and a sore spot on my eyebrow. However, it's gotten me thinking if that helmet is enough for my riding activities. My spouse and I have an R&M Homage and an HPV Scorpion recumbent trike that we swap back and forth. Certainly the road helmet is fine on the trike so I'm not worried about that. On the R&M, I often have to descend 30% or greater grades. On one particularly long street, called Portola, there is a stretch where I have hit 45 mph. And we often ride on mtb trails, some of which are quite rocky, such as at Mt. Diablo where long portions of trail are composed entirely of excavated rock. I'm not a crazy downhill mtb rider doing drops and jumps and that sort of thing, but some of these rocky trails are quite steep and I can get going pretty fast.

After the experience of smacking my head unexpectedly while traveling relatively slowly with no traffic or pedestrians around and the helmet doing nothing because of the angle at which I impacted, I'm starting to think about a full-face DH mtb helmet. Right now I'm looking at the 100% Status and Fox Pro Frame, because they both satisfy all four of CE, ASTM, CSPC and AN/NZS. The Bell Full-9 also looks like a great helmet but doesn't satisfy AN/NZS.

Am I being paranoid? It seems like there is a real risk of spinal or head injuries if an accident occurred in some of these situations. My spouse rides more tamely than I do, but maybe I should consider a full-face helmet for them as well.

A little late to conversation, since you already purchased a helmet.

Helmets are always a good idea for any eBike, because of how fast you can go compared to a normal bike. But a fullface at those speed, is an even better idea.

 

[bombadero]

@IggyBBR thanks for your input, it's very much appreciated. What surprised me about this thread is that usually when you post something on a forum, a comment section, or what have you, there are a wide range of opinions from full support to outright trolling. Well, trolling doesn't usually occur on forums... but you might get some heated debates. In this case everyone who posted was in favor of the proposition of getting a safer helmet.

The cost and the outlandish looks of full face helmets were what prompted me to post. I was thinking "Do I really need this?" That said, I already get comments and hate just for being on an e-bike, although not as frequently as I used to, or maybe I just don't notice it as much now. People already think the Casco Roadster looks like a half-face motorcycle helmet when I have the visor down and between that and the beefy look of the Homage, I'll get comments from time to time about it being a 'motorcycle', or motorcyclists will make fun of me for being a wanna-be motorcyclist. Ultimately, my health and safety are more important than not looking outlandish. And since I'm going to look outlandish anyway, I got a graphically awesome helmet that will make me look like a poser with pretensions about being a downhill mtb racer, but there will always be haters.

The anecdotes shared here and that I have read elsewhere convinced me that a full face is worth it, combined with my own experience of face planting into concrete and only walking away due to sheer luck. Incidentally, this isn't even the first time that pretty much this exact scenario has happened to me. The last time was on my unassisted, Sears special mtb in the noughties. I was riding from a bus stop to a wedding I was working as a bartender for a caterer. I was wearing black and white formal attire and didn't want to muss my hair, so my helmet was in my back pack. I figured it was less than a mile to the event center, so I would just take it easy. Right at the beginning of my short ride, I was riding down a paved sidewalk trail down into a ravine. It had been raining the past two weeks and at the bottom of the ravine a storm drain was flowing over the path into the ravine. Under the flowing water was a thick sheet of moss - I slowed down to about 10 mph, but the same thing happened as in my recent accident. The bike went sideways while I kept moving forward and did a face plant into concrete. That time, the bridge of my metal glasses, which was quite blunt, gouged into my nose, then slid down in an instant and gouged it lower down. So I had two gnarly gashes across my nose. Miraculously, then as now, I had no concussion or broken vertebrae, and my nose wasn't even busted. I just had a bad headache and my nose was bleeding slightly out of those gashes. I showed up to the event and actually worked the gig after a little first aid and clean up - the employers, rather than showing any compassion, insisted I work my shift instead of seeing a doctor, and afterwards didn't hire me for future gigs.

So having the same essential scenario happen, this time on a muddy trail covered with slick leaves and wearing a well-rated helmet, but having the helmet do nothing due to the angle of the fall, got me thinking a little harder about safety. I've had a few other scrapes, close calls and even broken bones over my life while riding bikes, but this one alarmed me the most, not because it hurt the most or was the most dangerous, but because I wasn't doing anything that seemed dangerous at the time and the helmet I was wearing was useless, not owing to any flaw in the helmet itself, but rather that the category of helmet wasn't adequate for the accident. Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[Toomanycats]

@Toomanycats btw, I looked up your Raleigh Lore and I think I have a possible explanation as to why my R&M Homage is more stable at high speeds. I see three major differences: First, unlike the Lore, and also many R&M models, the Homage's rack is an integral part of the frame rather than bolt-on, and it's quite sturdy. It also has the normal stay geometry leading to the dropouts. So the rear wheel has a big chunk of metal sitting over it - chunky enough, btw that you can put 20 kilos directly on the rack. The stays themselves are also a little beefier. Second, the Homage has a rear suspension shock. And last and third, above the motor and around that shock R&M have constructed a sort of rigid box that holds everything together, that I suspect might be giving the frame added rigidity. They may have done that to compensate for it being a step-through frame, but in typical German fashion they applied so much engineering overkill to it that it might actually be more rigid than with a top tube. The downtube is also crazy thick - it's 2 3/4 inches wide and flat on 3 sides. I've attached a photo of the area of the bike I think makes it more stable.

Actually I’ve grown a little more confident on the bike now (I only started riding again around Christmas, after a 20 year hiatus) and I’m feeling better about how the bike handles at speed.
I still try to limit myself to 20 mph because old people bones.
And there is nothing like German engineering. I’ve seen the R and M bikes, and they are built like tanks.

 

[IggyBBR]

@IggyBBR thanks for your input, it's very much appreciated. What surprised me about this thread is that usually when you post something on a forum, a comment section, or what have you, there are a wide range of opinions from full support to outright trolling. Well, trolling doesn't usually occur on forums... but you might get some heated debates. In this case everyone who posted was in favor of the proposition of getting a safer helmet.

The cost and the outlandish looks of full face helmets were what prompted me to post. I was thinking "Do I really need this?" That said, I already get comments and hate just for being on an e-bike, although not as frequently as I used to, or maybe I just don't notice it as much now. People already think the Casco Roadster looks like a half-face motorcycle helmet when I have the visor down and between that and the beefy look of the Homage, I'll get comments from time to time about it being a 'motorcycle', or motorcyclists will make fun of me for being a wanna-be motorcyclist. Ultimately, my health and safety are more important than not looking outlandish. And since I'm going to look outlandish anyway, I got a graphically awesome helmet that will make me look like a poser with pretensions about being a downhill mtb racer, but there will always be haters.

The anecdotes shared here and that I have read elsewhere convinced me that a full face is worth it, combined with my own experience of face planting into concrete and only walking away due to sheer luck. Incidentally, this isn't even the first time that pretty much this exact scenario has happened to me. The last time was on my unassisted, Sears special mtb in the noughties. I was riding from a bus stop to a wedding I was working as a bartender for a caterer. I was wearing black and white formal attire and didn't want to muss my hair, so my helmet was in my back pack. I figured it was less than a mile to the event center, so I would just take it easy. Right at the beginning of my short ride, I was riding down a paved sidewalk trail down into a ravine. It had been raining the past two weeks and at the bottom of the ravine a storm drain was flowing over the path into the ravine. Under the flowing water was a thick sheet of moss - I slowed down to about 10 mph, but the same thing happened as in my recent accident. The bike went sideways while I kept moving forward and did a face plant into concrete. That time, the bridge of my metal glasses, which was quite blunt, gouged into my nose, then slid down in an instant and gouged it lower down. So I had two gnarly gashes across my nose. Miraculously, then as now, I had no concussion or broken vertebrae, and my nose wasn't even busted. I just had a bad headache and my nose was bleeding slightly out of those gashes. I showed up to the event and actually worked the gig after a little first aid and clean up - the employers, rather than showing any compassion, insisted I work my shift instead of seeing a doctor, and afterwards didn't hire me for future gigs.

So having the same essential scenario happen, this time on a muddy trail covered with slick leaves and wearing a well-rated helmet, but having the helmet do nothing due to the angle of the fall, got me thinking a little harder about safety. I've had a few other scrapes, close calls and even broken bones over my life while riding bikes, but this one alarmed me the most, not because it hurt the most or was the most dangerous, but because I wasn't doing anything that seemed dangerous at the time and the helmet I was wearing was useless, not owing to any flaw in the helmet itself, but rather that the category of helmet wasn't adequate for the accident. Thanks again for your feedback.

Yes there will always be trolls, especially when you're looking for information and asking a basic question or even when posting a simple reply.


I have had my fair share of spills, with bikes, I can say the only time I wear a helmet all the time has been since I purchased my eMTB. Mostly because the simple fact Im way faster and able to maintained speeds easily, and riding in NYC traffic anything can happen. Almost all of the of the delivery guys on eBikes basically wear what look to be motocycle style helmets. Before this the only time I would wear a helmets when Im riding trails, downhilling or skate parks. I recently purchased a new full face Demon Podium, for when I get a chance to ride at the Bike Park. Its pretty lightweight and giving me the same coverage as my old Giro Remedy.

 

[PDoz]

Re wannabee motorcyclist - " yeah, I'm waiting for parts on the bimota " ( or vincent if they are over 70)

If they ride motorbikes, chances are they'll take a very different / longer look at your ebike. If they look confused, chances are they're boring so pedal on....life is too short to chat with them. Just be prepared for the one in a million response of " hey, I've got a spare tessi leading link in my shed" ( if they are your preferred sex, propose )

 

[rich c]

At speeds like 45mph, I worry about other complicated injuries. Broken collarbone is a given, but then ribs and even the neck. Our son broke a rib at less than 10mph when he landed on the handlebars. Another major concern would be loss of skin. You're going to slide quite a ways if you go down at 45mph. Be careful out there!

 

[steve mercier]

yeah I have looked at this stuff often ,but I fear looking like a StormTrooper...https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/body-armour?f=2258