Hydra question

[Jgreen92]

Hello I have looked at the hydra model and might get the archon x1 unlimited motor with the 3'' tires. Since this has a better controller what range do you get out of the 17.5ah on pavement/off road? Also how do you rate the suspension of the bike.
Might get this bike or a Frey EX Advanced but I think the motor will work better on the Hydra compared to the Frey since the Frey has the stock controller.

 

[BruceBrown]

This is from the WW website. Note the Hydra has a 52V 17AH battery.

Range estimates from anyone are a total guess. It depends on so many factors that you really can't rely on what anybody tells you.

The Hydra is available with several suspension configurations so you're able to get whatever you'd like.

 

[Acme]

I had the X1controller on my Frey CC for several months and was really happy with the range. Unfortunately I have some pedal assist issue which I am trying to suss out at the moment so I moved back to the stock motor. All I can say is at the higher draw like climbing Gibraltar Road here which is 3500 feet of vertical there is absolutely no comparison. I can climb the whole road with the X1 going 17 miles an hour and I only make it 2/3 of the way with the stock Bafang controller going slower. My friend has the exact same bike with the stock controller and on one ride I had to use my bike to tow my niece on a broken bike at least 1500 feet of elevation up a fire Road and I still had more battery than he did when we were done. Any bike I look at I always factor in adding $700 to upgrade the controller to the cost of the bike.
I have two hydros with the X1 controller coming and this first order. When I get them I will be posting about the range.
gary

 

[Jgreen92]

I had the X1controller on my Frey CC for several months and was really happy with the range. Unfortunately I have some pedal assist issue which I am trying to suss out at the moment so I moved back to the stock motor. All I can say is at the higher draw like climbing Gibraltar Road here which is 3500 feet of vertical there is absolutely no comparison. I can climb the whole road with the X1 going 17 miles an hour and I only make it 2/3 of the way with the stock Bafang controller going slower. My friend has the exact same bike with the stock controller and on one ride I had to use my bike to tow my niece on a broken bike at least 1500 feet of elevation up a fire Road and I still had more battery than he did when we were done. Any bike I look at I always factor in adding $700 to upgrade the controller to the cost of the bike.
I have two hydros with the X1 controller coming and this first order. When I get them I will be posting about the range.
gary

Thanks for the information Acme it is helpful, the only thing holding me back from the Frey is controller stuff. I know it can probably be reprogrammed but I don't know what can be fixed by that and what can't. Since you had a Frey bike I have some questions about that.

With the stock controller on the CC did pedal assist work pretty well or was it unstable? I have read some people say it fluctuates some and just acts weird which bothers me because I will use assist most of the time.

Did you have much overrun when you stop pedaling/throttling?

I have heard about some delays with the pedal assist after switching gears?

I'm really torn between the Hydra and the Frey EX, the Frey has better front suspension, more range with dual batteries but its heavy and might have controller issues.

The Hydra has less range but is way way lighter which should help with range and can have a good controller but has not so good suspension and I won't really have money left for better suspension. I have considered just getting two batteries for a lower capacity bike like the Hydra or a biktrix but there is no good way to carry that second with me. I have read its very unsafe to have it in a backpack because it can break your back if you crash wrong and it would be annoying to say the least.

Any more info for these questions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dunksalot]

Thanks for the information Acme it is helpful, the only thing holding me back from the Frey is controller stuff. I know it can probably be reprogrammed but I don't know what can be fixed by that and what can't. Since you had a Frey bike I have some questions about that.

With the stock controller on the CC did pedal assist work pretty well or was it unstable? I have read some people say it fluctuates some and just acts weird which bothers me because I will use assist most of the time.

Did you have much overrun when you stop pedaling/throttling?

I have heard about some delays with the pedal assist after switching gears?

I'm really torn between the Hydra and the Frey EX, the Frey has better suspension, more range with dual batteries but its heavy and might have controller issues.

The Hydra has less range but is way way lighter which should help with range and can have a good controller but has not so good suspension and I won't really have money left for better suspension. I have considered just getting two batteries for a lower capacity bike like the Hydra or a biktrix but there is no good way to carry that second with me. I have read its very unsafe to have it in a backpack because it can break your back if you crash wrong and it would be annoying to say the least.

Any more info for these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Hydra is carbon fiber. Frey EX is aluminum, correct?

 

[Jgreen92]

Yeah the hydra is carbon and Frey is aluminum. Carbon is lighter but might destroy the frame if I crash.

 

[dunksalot]

Yeah the hydra is carbon and Frey is aluminum. Carbon is lighter but might destroy the frame if I crash.

Carbon is supposed to be 4x stronger if made right. If you are doing 10' jumps then (a) I suppose it matters and you would want a lighter frame at that point, and (b) you are a beast and I am jealous. I snapped an aluminum frame as a kid but that was rust-induced on a BMX bike.

 

[BruceBrown]

Thanks for the information Acme it is helpful, the only thing holding me back from the Frey is controller stuff. I know it can probably be reprogrammed but I don't know what can be fixed by that and what can't. Since you had a Frey bike I have some questions about that.

With the stock controller on the CC did pedal assist work pretty well or was it unstable? I have read some people say it fluctuates some and just acts weird which bothers me because I will use assist most of the time.

Did you have much overrun when you stop pedaling/throttling?

I have heard about some delays with the pedal assist after switching gears?

I'm really torn between the Hydra and the Frey EX, the Frey has better front suspension, more range with dual batteries but its heavy and might have controller issues.

The Hydra has less range but is way way lighter which should help with range and can have a good controller but has not so good suspension and I won't really have money left for better suspension. I have considered just getting two batteries for a lower capacity bike like the Hydra or a biktrix but there is no good way to carry that second with me. I have read its very unsafe to have it in a backpack because it can break your back if you crash wrong and it would be annoying to say the least.

Any more info for these questions would be greatly appreciated.

If you’re willing to spend some money on an extra battery which you’d likely need with the Frey, put that money towards the front suspension you want on the Hydra.

 

[Jgreen92]

The Hydra is actually a bit more than I got quoted for the Frey EX Advanced with dual batteries and some accessories. For the Frey is $4755 including shipping and tax.

 

[Jgreen92]

Carbon is supposed to be 4x stronger if made right. If you are doing 10' jumps then (a) I suppose it matters and you would want a lighter frame at that point, and (b) you are a beast and I am jealous. I snapped an aluminum frame as a kid but that was rust-induced on a BMX bike.

I won't be doing any jumps, if I do any they will be tiny jumps lol. I'm not real into the technical trail riding more casual offroad and pavement riding.

 

[Acme]

1 PAS The PAS worked relatively well with some minor fading and unevenness. Totally usable though. I think there is a bad connection between the battery and the motor somewhere which I am currently trying to find. Unfortunately the X1 controller magnified this because I think it is more sensitive.
2 it has several seconds of overrun. This can be a problem or it can be helpful depending on what type of rocks you are going over.
3 I paid for the gear switch sensor which cuts power for little less than two seconds when you shift. It’s a little more than it needs to be but works well. The X1 controller cuts out for about 1/2 second. Oddly though the X1 is not supposed to cut out at all.
hands-down I would go with the Hydra. It is less than 60 pounds. You can spend a little extra to upgrade components if you want but if you’re not a competitive rider you will probably be fine with the stock components. you will get customer service which is invaluable in my opinion.

 

[Acme]

If I were buying I would look at the Frey for $4755 and add $700 for the X1 controlle =$5455. Then how do the two bikes compare and price. If you’re doing trail riding then I don’t see a problem with the 880wh battery on the hydra. You can go a long way on that. If you’re riding roads with massive elevation gain that can burn up battery range. By the way my Frey took just under six months to arrive.

 

[reed scott]

I won't be doing any jumps, if I do any they will be tiny jumps lol. I'm not real into the technical trail riding more casual offroad and pavement riding.

Jgreen92, I've been following your path to decision. We all go through it. When I started, not long ago at all, there was no Hydra and the WW bikes were beyond my willingness to pay. I found Bolton Ebikes and Kyle was touting his version of an AM1000 which was pretty well speced. I was hot to get a bike so I pre-ordered. Of course it took much longer for the bike to make it into the real world and during that time I started to talk to Pushkar and found out about the coming new carbon framed FS WW bike that would be more affordable. Oh gee, what do I do? Cancel the Bolton bike and wait all over again for this new bike? Go for both? What what what? I decided to spend the money and have two bikes. Which I now feel is the best decision I could have made. If one bike goes down ( and this is very likely ) I will have another to ride while fixing or getting fixed the other one. This amount of money I have spent is not rational for most people. I happen to be O L D with no dependents and hopefully have enough money to last me to ... the end. Hoping I get maybe another ten years to enjoy riding.

You are thinking very hard. My advice to you is buy a bike. You are reaching pretty high for your first ebike. None of the bikes you are looking at will disappoint. In fact any of them will blow your mind. You seem to have the budget for a good bike. I suggest you get an AM 1000 with a 21 Ah battery. Your butt will give out before one of these huge batteries does. Furthermore just pay for air freight and you can have one in 3 months. My Frey bike meets all my wildest dreams.

EDIT: My original Frey bike controller was fine. I could not tell what others were talking about regarding any negative issues. The only reason I put an X1 WW motor in mine was because I stupidly killed my original motor. Killed the controller anyway.

 

[MartsEbike]

With the stock controller on the CC did pedal assist work pretty well or was it unstable? I have read some people say it fluctuates some and just acts weird which bothers me because I will use assist most of the time.

I don't think it acts weird. I regularly ride 30-40 miles without any issue.

The Stock programming (at least on Frey) is set so that the motor tapers off once it hits it peak - I suppose this could be considered a fluctuation but it is changeable in the programming. ("keepcur" setting)

Did you have much overrun when you stop pedaling/throttling?

This is set in the programming. You can choose how long it overruns for. You may find some overrun is actually beneficial.

I have heard about some delays with the pedal assist after switching gears?

The Gear Sensor causes a delay, it cuts power while you change gears, but some people don't like this thinking they can change gear faster without it - which is fair enough, but you run the risk of breaking the chain if you mangle a gear change... Personally I have it on my bike and don't find it a big issue...

 

[Jgreen92]

Thanks for all the answers guys, I think I just have to decide now. I think I will probably go with the Hydra since its so light weight and the battery should still get me where I want to go. It not my first ebike though as I have had a RadRover for a year but it is my first in this price range so I'm trying to be very careful. The Hydra I think should still go quiet a ways because when I'm on level ground it will be much easier to pedal than 80lb.

 

[BruceBrown]

Thanks for all the answers guys, I think I just have to decide now. I think I will probably go with the Hydra since its so light weight and the battery should still get me where I want to go. It not my first ebike though as I have had a RadRover for a year but it is my first in this price range so I'm trying to be very careful. The Hydra I think should still go quiet a ways because when I'm on level ground it will be much easier to pedal than 80lb.

The Hydra also gives you an upgrade path to some really cool new things should you choose to take advantage in the future.

 

[Jgreen92]

So I have submitted a ticket with Watt Wagons with some final questions about the bike like the frame size in inches for the large and about the 750w nominal vs 1000w nominal. I'm thinking about maybe getting the 750w nominal as 28mph is still pretty fast and not quite as suicidal as 35mph lol. I think it would also mean my power use would probably be less at each pas level? I guess it would also mean less torque too but it would still be a lot.

 

[reed scott]

Go for the 1000 watt version. You can always temper your selection of mode and use of throttle. Better to have it and not need it.

 

[Acme]

Yes yes I agree gey at least the 1000 W. also the frame is on the large side with a generous reach so if you’re on the edge you could easily get a medium.

 

[Ebiker33]

It's a good choice the Hydra, and this is your second Ebike you started with an entry level model, like me, I have Sondors and am also considering a Watt Wagon for my second Ebike.
Don't worry about busting a carbon fiber frame they have been tested a ton on single track very aggressively, they only bust after people do massive jumps over and over again.
Most people on these forums biggest jumps will be curb to road.