Hydra Batterie Question

[bexamous]

Yeah I saw the DATEx2.. its just so expensive I quickly dismissed it as an option on principle, LOL. I mean I might later regret not just taking simple route.. we'll see. Will be 2 weeks or so till ideal diodes from aliexpress show up.

Oh and I've updated this comment: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/hydra-batterie-question.46676/post-502708

I got a not-as-junky power meter for my charging setup. I need to mess with it some more to see if its aH (and wH) make sense, it seems to. Volts and amps seem pretty spot on.

 

[Ebike Addict]

I could imagine it being even a cm longer or something such that brackets only fit one pack or the other but not both... but turns out that's not the case.

I contacted Pushkar and the two packs are basically interchangable. There are two issues:

• The display's percentage remaining.
• The 'motor' (I think Pushkar says motor when referring to Innotrace controller?) has a low voltage cutoff. WW sets it to 3.0v/cell.. so for 52v pack they set cutoff to 43v and for 48v they set it to 39.2v. But that means either:
  • Cutoff is set to 43v for the 52v pack, but that means if you put in a 48v pack cutoff is not at 3.0v/cell but rather 3.3v/cell, so you can't use last 15% of capacity in 48v pack.
  • Cutoff is set to 39.2v for the 48v pack and now you can use all its capacity, but if you stick in a 52v pack the 39.2v cutoff is ~2.8v/cell... which isn't really good to constently be doing.

But for me, I don't care about percentage remaining, I like just knowing volts. And with cutoff set for 48v pack using a 52v pack I trust myself to not let it overdischarge. And if I do its on me. So yeah I told Pushkar:

https://imgur.com/Sxj1uCX

I'm kinda making a bigger deal over this than is really needed.. just got home from a ride.. 30 miles with 2800ft elevation, 3 hour ride (2.5 hour moving time-- after every climb I need a couple minutes, haha).. pack is at 51.2v aka 3.655v/cell aka ~6.82AH remaining according to BMS. I was being very conservative with assist, but still.. its going to be pretty rare I actaully use up entire 52v pack's 720wH. But this was charging to 4.2v/cell, charging to 4.1v/cell will knock off an aH or two.. and then I dunno it just ends up being range anxiety.. I don't want to ever cut a ride short because I'm not sure I have enough battery left. I think that's mostly it.

Hi @bexamous. I just contacted WW (Amit) for the purpose of purchasing the 48V battery as an extra to my original 52V. He said that it is not straightforward to swap both types of batteries. Apparently, if we want to use the 48V, we will have to ship them the motor so that they can make some modification. I assume it is likely related to the controller. It seems to be a different message than the one you posted. I am just wondering if you had gone through the process of using the 48V?

 

[bexamous]

Yeah the short story is if you want to to swtich Innotrace controller from 52v to 48v you have to send WattWagons your motor. Its the most rediculous problem. I hope VESC controllers reach parity sooner than later (if they havn't already) and Innotrace can go away.

FWIW longer version:
Initially I asked WattWagons about 48v batteries, they said it was no problem, would just need to update controller setting. I bought 2 batteries.
I got batteries and asked how to change controller to 48v, thinking I'd have to flash a different version of firmware or something. They describe process to me, by opening software and going to 'Motor' tab or something and changing simple setting. I inform them my version of software doesn't have a 'Motor' tab. They then say they'll need to get back to me. I guess they initially forgot their version isn't same as customer version.
They get back saying they need to contact Innotrace and ask Innotrace to make setting in their version of software avaialble in customer version of software.
I don't know Innotrace's response but apparently that won't be happening.
Only solution is to send motor in and have WattWagons change a software setting.

But yeah quite the PITA because Innotrace sucks.

BTW in mean time I've just been using 48v packs, they work fine. You just can't drain them down to 0% because of the LVC, I forget what the cutoff is. Last week sent WW my motor though because I'm now determined to swtich to 48v batteries, they just got my motor today, hopefully they sent it out today or will tomorrow.

But yeah basically switching from 52v to 48v is much less appealing.

 

[Ebike Addict]

Yeah the short story is if you want to to swtich Innotrace controller from 52v to 48v you have to send WattWagons your motor. Its the most rediculous problem. I hope VESC controllers reach parity sooner than later (if they havn't already) and Innotrace can go away.

FWIW longer version:
Initially I asked WattWagons about 48v batteries, they said it was no problem, would just need to update controller setting. I bought 2 batteries.
I got batteries and asked how to change controller to 48v, thinking I'd have to flash a different version of firmware or something. They describe process to me, by opening software and going to 'Motor' tab or something and changing simple setting. I inform them my version of software doesn't have a 'Motor' tab. They then say they'll need to get back to me. I guess they initially forgot their version isn't same as customer version.
They get back saying they need to contact Innotrace and ask Innotrace to make setting in their version of software avaialble in customer version of software.
I don't know Innotrace's response but apparently that won't be happening.
Only solution is to send motor in and have WattWagons change a software setting.

But yeah quite the PITA because Innotrace sucks.

BTW in mean time I've just been using 48v packs, they work fine. You just can't drain them down to 0% because of the LVC, I forget what the cutoff is. Last week sent WW my motor though because I'm now determined to swtich to 48v batteries, they just got my motor today, hopefully they sent it out today or will tomorrow.

But yeah basically switching from 52v to 48v is much less appealing.

Thank you so much for your feedback and explanation. You are correct: it is not very attractive to switch to 48V and not be able to use the original 52V anymore.

 

[JRA]

Thank you so much for your feedback and explanation. You are correct: it is not very attractive to switch to 48V and not be able to use the original 52V anymore.

No such problem with a stock UART controller thankfully. I now have a 48v and 52v battery and just change the setting in the display so far. I haven't experimented with changing the voltage in the program yet however it is easy to do. Won't do me any good out on a ride though so good to know that they both work on the same programming I suppose. Why did WW move away from the 52v battery?

 

[greeno]

Bexamous that's lame. When Pushkar initially made his first tutorial video on the Archon X1 controller I watched it and then sent him "Suggested modification" on info from the video. One of them was the in his video he shows the "Dealer Version" with the option of changing the 48v or 52v option and that it wasn't available in the customer version he said that that was correct and he would correct that part, guess that didn't happen.

Guys, Guys , Guys just know going in your on your own with this company.
I had an issue right after I got my bike back in 2020 and they told me that they didn't carry that brand any longer and to contact the parent company on any issues, ( supposed to have a 1 yr warranty ) in Germany.
I did and go figure no response. So I handled it on my own from that point on.

So much of this companies problems are easily fixable.... if they want to put the effort into it.

If you want to be a successful business focus on the things you can be better at not try to do EVERYTHING.
Create a niche and nail that portion and then move on to the next thing.

To much to fast is a recipe for non-longevity.
Ashame since Mr. P. seems like a nice guy and I wish him all the best in succeeding in his endeavor.
But customer service is the key to survive, your only as good as your word or reputation and once those are gone or questioned, you know the rest.

Back to my first sentence... your on your own.
Sorry for the lecture.

 

[WaxedWookie]

At this point, I have no idea what voltage or capacity my bike is going to be - the 52v, 17ah, apparently impossible battery advertised when I ordered, or a much lesser 48v, 14ah battery that appears to be getting sold at the moment. Now knowing I can't change the voltage myself just rubs salt in the wound.

More service and transparency failures from wattwagons.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hi guys.
Apologies, I've just stumbled on the thread.
Many thanks @bexamous for your kind words concerning my pics on EMTB Forums. Please by all means let me know any of you would like specific measurements concerning the battery bay or areas of the bike/frame.

As for the proposition of a dual battery option, I too was intrigued and began researching methods to see what could be done.

Here's my take on it:-
1. The frame (unlike the E10 variants has provisions for a water bottle cage. Indeed, that would be the best route to use for a secondary battery option.
2. The wiring of the battery to the motor has a switch which allows onboard charging rather than removing the battery from the frame. Meaning that you could 'in theory' plug a battery into the charger bay instead of routing a new dual battery xt60 splitter into the existing cables
3. Referring to my knowledge of lithium ion chargers, more volts needs to be introduced for cells to be charged. E.g. 36v battery = 42v charger or, 48v battery = 54v charger. However, by running a 48v secondary battery (let's say hypothetically a bottle styled battery) and didn't turn the power switch on the frame, the primary battery wouldn't charge but the secondary battery would trickle power to the primary downtube battery.
4. The M620 motor must be powered by atleast a 48v battery (preferably 48v 17.5amp). Anything lower may result in little usage or small gains due to the increase in weight.

This is where I've got to so far but I remain confident that a solution (a simple solution) exists for third party developers to step in.

I'll give this some further thought and I'll be more than happy to share any info I can

 

[JRA]

There are 52v 21700 cell 780wh batteries in a stock type plug and play case available. As good if not better overall than the stock batteries that uses 18650 cells. Now after using both I am convinced via ride comparison that the 52v is a better option for M620 motors. PM for details.

For sale: 48v 720wh 21700 cell battery in stock E22 frame type case. As new. PM for $.

 

[Zachdds]

There are 52v 21700 cell 780wh batteries in a stock type plug and play case available. As good if not better overall than the stock batteries that uses 18650 cells. Now after using both I am convinced via ride comparison that the 52v is a better option for M620 motors. PM for details.

For sale: 48v 720wh 21700 cell battery in stock E22 frame type case. As new. PM for $.

Wonder why WW is making the switch?

 

[WaxedWookie]

Wonder why WW is making the switch?

Likely to maximise use of the capacity in the battery shell - it sounds as though the 52v 17ah battery claims were likely fraudulent (see pg1 of this thread), and switching from 15s3p (52v) to 14s4p (48v) increases the overall capacity /number of cells.

Getting into pure speculation, while 14s is more common than 15s, it may be predictive of Pushkar abandoning the Innotrace controllers in favour of the VESC - which have a standard max voltage of 60v (14s max voltage is 58.8v) - not much room for error, but possible.

 

[bexamous]

Ah one good piece of news.. sent motor in, they got it yesterday, today they called saying they'd changed setting to 48v and serviced motor replacing grease with some synthetic. Didn't mention SHC 100, or any name. I was quite happy to hear that because I had planned to do the same when I got motor back, but now I don't need to deal with that mess. Interestingly Gregg mentioned they've started to do this because it cuts down on motor noise a bit.