Help with a FS eMTB $3-4k

[TomD]

I used PAS 1-2 a bit yesterday in steep rocky terrain and it was ok. If you are putting enough constant pressure on the pedals it does what it should. It's more an issue in less challenging terrain as power will fall off mid cadence with lighter pedaling, so hard to maintain rhythm unless you bump it up to PAS 3. Monster? Hardly.

 

[PacNwTexan]

What about this throttled m600 class 3?

Save Up to 60% Off eBikes LTD QTYS of these eBoost Mountain bikes 2023 Motobecane HAL eBoost M600 with SRAM / E8000 Electric MidDrive 27.5PLUS Full Suspension Mountain eBikes SRAM Hydraulic Disc Brakes Rockshox LockOut 140mm Forks | Save up to 60% o

 

[FlatSix911]

What about this throttled m600 class 3?

Save Up to 60% Off eBikes LTD QTYS of these eBoost Mountain bikes 2023 Motobecane HAL eBoost M600 with SRAM / E8000 Electric MidDrive 27.5PLUS Full Suspension Mountain eBikes SRAM Hydraulic Disc Brakes Rockshox LockOut 140mm Forks | Save up to 60% o

BD has always been known for value-priced bikes... the eBoost M600 looks like a really nice ride.

 

[banshee28]

Yep this is def on my list! Does seem very nice for the price!

 

[TomD]

Looks like a 10% smaller battery than the X1. But perhaps there is enough room to store a spare in the triangle. If you do end up getting the M600 you'll definitely want to swap out to the quiet gear from Luna if you value your sanity.

 

[PacNwTexan]

I have heard mixed reviews on the luna noise dampening. I have also read that the m600 is less obnoxious at higher speeds. We will see.

Sure wish I could find a video, any at all, on the Motobecane above. I ordered one and it delivers October.

 

[TomD]

I have ridden both and it's night and day. While you can still hear the quiet gear it's a fairly pleasant tone, reminds me of a low pitched flute. The metal gear sounds like a cat moaning and screeching on a fence. Good thing is if you find it bothersome you can install the quiet gear.

PS, I'm in Issaquah. If you want to drop by for a test ride on the X1 drop me a note.

 

[PacNwTexan]

I have ridden both and it's night and day. While you can still hear the quiet gear it's a fairly pleasant tone, reminds me of a low pitched flute. The metal gear sounds like a cat moaning and screeching on a fence. Good thing is if you find it bothersome you can install the quiet gear.

PS, I'm in Issaquah. If you want to drop by for a test ride on the X1 drop me a note.

Small world. Hope to ride tiger soon but thinking I want to wait for the new bike which really puts me into spring.

Check out this trail system coming in the bonney lake area

 

[TomD]

Nice, I don't think Tiger is eMTB friendly. I can't find much about Tehaleh other than Evergreen is involved (my impression is they don't exactly embrace eMTB), but I don't really have skilz to ride MTB trails, need to save my 9 lives for off trail hiking. I mostly got the X1 for abandoned roads to cut down long hiking approaches. Currently nursing a bruised rib from getting my hiking pant leg caught in the front chain ring on the descent.

 

[EBRQuest]

Banshee, I wanted to add-on here. I'm looking for a very similar thing. Information is very hard to come by and no bikes seem to have everything I want. Maybe we can help each other search.

I'm looking for a FS IGH MTB with Gates drive and 27.5/29" tires, unregulated top speed class III (throttle/pedelec). No bike has the FS Gates except for R&M and one other German make I heard of on here (with proprietary belt tensioner). However, I found this Luna bike which cuts into most of my requirements (5-sp. SA hub, unregulated max RPM's). As far as I understand it, the only way to get this is to be looking into max off-road bikes, since touring and commuter designs are subject to regulations and speed governors. The other way is to hack the speed sensor on some motors, although I'm sure that would be a few night's worth of time and money.

I work nights on the east coast, so I'm doing city commuting with some trails on my route. Going through rain and snow, largely empty and unpopulated since I'm biking exclusively at night. Need to cover 30 miles a day, so I want the speed and suspension..

Here is the Luna model..

Luna Fat BABE (Bad Ass Belt Ebike)

Distributors and builders of life changing high power electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

The X-Treme Cycles model (no belt)..

Xtreme rubicon electric bike | Mountain

Electric Bikes and Scooters – Buy Xtreme rubicon electric bike. It is perfect for anyone looking for Mountain E-bikes or Scooters. Shop X-treme rubicon ebike now!

electricbikesandscooters.com

The Riese & Muller ($$$, governor)..

Superdelite mountain – Peak climber | Riese & Müller

No destination too high, no ride too far, no descent too steep. With Control Technology.

www.r-m.de

 

[banshee28]

Banshee, I wanted to add-on here. I'm looking for a very similar thing. Information is very hard to come by and no bikes seem to have everything I want. Maybe we can help each other search.

I'm looking for a FS IGH MTB with Gates drive and 27.5/29" tires, unregulated top speed class III (throttle/pedelec). No bike has the FS Gates except for R&M and one other German make I heard of on here (with proprietary belt tensioner). However, I found this Luna bike which cuts into most of my requirements (5-sp. SA hub, unregulated max RPM's). As far as I understand it, the only way to get this is to be looking into max off-road bikes, since touring and commuter designs are subject to regulations and speed governors. The other way is to hack the speed sensor on some motors, although I'm sure that would be a few night's worth of time and money.

I work nights on the east coast, so I'm doing city commuting with some trails on my route. Going through rain and snow, largely empty and unpopulated since I'm biking exclusively at night. Need to cover 30 miles a day, so I want the speed and suspension..

Here is the Luna model..

Luna Fat BABE (Bad Ass Belt Ebike)

Distributors and builders of life changing high power electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

The X-Treme Cycles model (no belt)..

Xtreme rubicon electric bike | Mountain

Electric Bikes and Scooters – Buy Xtreme rubicon electric bike. It is perfect for anyone looking for Mountain E-bikes or Scooters. Shop X-treme rubicon ebike now!

electricbikesandscooters.com

The Riese & Muller ($$$, governor)..

Superdelite mountain – Peak climber | Riese & Müller

No destination too high, no ride too far, no descent too steep. With Control Technology.

www.r-m.de

Hey there... Interestingly I have also considered the same IGH and belt drive setup!! AS you seen too, it seems very few manufactures have these and the ones that do are close to $10k.

I did look seriously into the Luna Fat model, but i really dont need the fat tries and its not FS, but riding on the beach would be awesome! Agreed, seems like there is not a perfect bike right now that has everything.

I heard Frey is "considering" a IGH and Belt but who knows when or if that will actually be available. I think WW is also considering it.

I am leaning more towards the better and stronger motor and a good battery, components, etc. and not so much the IGH and belt. And I think you could always add the IGH down the road if you really wanted it.

I am hoping some new models come out soon for 2021!!!

Choices...

 

[EBRQuest]

Hey there... Interestingly I have also considered the same IGH and belt drive setup!! AS you seen too, it seems very few manufactures have these and the ones that do are close to $10k.

I did look seriously into the Luna Fat model, but i really dont need the fat tries and its not FS, but riding on the beach would be awesome! Agreed, seems like there is not a perfect bike right now that has everything.

I heard Frey is "considering" a IGH and Belt but who knows when or if that will actually be available. I think WW is also considering it.

I am leaning more towards the better and stronger motor and a good battery, components, etc. and not so much the IGH and belt. And I think you could always add the IGH down the road if you really wanted it.

I am hoping some new models come out soon for 2021!!!

Choices...

Great point, man! Since the belt with FS seems to be the breaking point for all manufacturers (not like it's rocket surgery), I appreciate that viewpoint that a better motor (un-nannied) with better component package is the way to go. If you find more, please post it here! I WISH the Motobecane had a belt drive..

Why is it so hard to manufacture a dummy tensioner for dropouts to adapt Gates to FS? Dumbass s*it like that just makes me laugh sometimes. It's gotta be somewhere..

Found one more (non-elec)! Pinion/Effigear needs to be mounted with a mid-drive in a frame exactly like this, with a Gates belt..

Cavalerie brings belt drive to full-suspension mountain bikes

Dirty, noisy chains and dirty, fragile rear derailleurs are two features of modern mountain bikes that could certainly stand to be made obsolete. Well, the Cavalerie line of full-suspension MTBs does away with both, replacing them with a Gates Carbon belt drive and an Effigear gearbox. Launched…

newatlas.com

 

[TomD]

If you are looking for more battery than the Luna X1, Dengfu is now offering an updated frame with 29" tires and 816wh batterty:

E10

E10 is a mountain E-bike, carbon fiber, 150mm full suspension, used for AM riding. Equipped with Bafang M600 motor and Sony battery.

www.dengfubike.com

 

[banshee28]

If you are looking for more battery than the Luna X1, Dengfu is now offering an updated frame with 29" tires and 816wh batterty:

E10

E10 is a mountain E-bike, carbon fiber, 150mm full suspension, used for AM riding. Equipped with Bafang M600 motor and Sony battery.

www.dengfubike.com

That looks nice! I never heard of that brand before. I wonder how much lighter this bike would be since its carbon. I could not tell from the website.

 

[TomD]

Dengfu is better known for their carbon frames (and fairly well regarded in that regard). They make the frame for the Luna X1. It's not on their website because apparently Luna got an exclusive and Dengfu couldn't offer the frame in North America. People were actually ordering that frame and building their own bikes almost a year before Luna decided to offer it. Here is the first build that I was aware of.

Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

This bike has been bought direct from Dengfu who manufactures the carbon frames. The frame is made for either the Shimano Step motor or the Bafang M600. The frame also has a space built into the frame for a 48 volt battery pack that Bafang themselves are manufacturing. I have spec’d the bike...

endless-sphere.com

Didn't sound like it was a cake walk dealing with Dengfu (they are in Taiwan but I think similar issues as buying direct with China with language barriers) but I think since then Dengfu has started to offer pre-built bikes and may have improved things, no idea. You should be able to custom spec any build.

 

[EBRQuest]

If you are looking for more battery than the Luna X1, Dengfu is now offering an updated frame with 29" tires and 816wh batterty:

E10

E10 is a mountain E-bike, carbon fiber, 150mm full suspension, used for AM riding. Equipped with Bafang M600 motor and Sony battery.

www.dengfubike.com

Thanks, Tom! This is very nice, and the price is good. I can't find weight anywhere on the specs. Do you happen to know?

 

[TomD]

I would ask kiwitourer on ES. He's already built a couple of these with the new frame.

Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

This bike has been bought direct from Dengfu who manufactures the carbon frames. The frame is made for either the Shimano Step motor or the Bafang M600. The frame also has a space built into the frame for a 48 volt battery pack that Bafang themselves are manufacturing. I have spec’d the bike...

endless-sphere.com

As always weight (and cost) will vary with the components. For example, luna went with fairly heavy wheels to save cost. It increases the weight by about 5 pounds vs. carbon wheelset and going tubeless.

 

[banshee28]

Dengfu is better known for their carbon frames (and fairly well regarded in that regard). They make the frame for the Luna X1. It's not on their website because apparently Luna got an exclusive and Dengfu couldn't offer the frame in North America. People were actually ordering that frame and building their own bikes almost a year before Luna decided to offer it. Here is the first build that I was aware of.

Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

This bike has been bought direct from Dengfu who manufactures the carbon frames. The frame is made for either the Shimano Step motor or the Bafang M600. The frame also has a space built into the frame for a 48 volt battery pack that Bafang themselves are manufacturing. I have spec’d the bike...

endless-sphere.com

Didn't sound like it was a cake walk dealing with Dengfu (they are in Taiwan but I think similar issues as buying direct with China with language barriers) but I think since then Dengfu has started to offer pre-built bikes and may have improved things, no idea. You should be able to custom spec any build.

Checking out the ES threads, thanks! General question, maybe I will find the answer in those threads but I dont see the throttle listed as factory? Also it sounds like these would be similar to ordering from Frey and shipping from China?

 

[TomD]

Throttle just plugs in to the harness. It's a trivial cost item so shouldn't add much cost if not included. As mentioned earlier, throttle is a bit underwhelming on the stock M600. It gives you the full motor output you would otherwise get for the PAS level you are in if you pedaled hard enough, but without the extra output you would be giving by pedaling hard (if you don't pedal when using throttle). Still nice to have nonetheless. The other issue with the M600 is the cranks are a bit long and pedal strike can be annoying so it may help in this scenario as well.

 

[EBRQuest]

Throttle just plugs in to the harness. It's a trivial cost item so shouldn't add much cost if not included. As mentioned earlier, throttle is a bit underwhelming on the stock M600. It gives you the full motor output you would otherwise get for the PAS level you are in if you pedaled hard enough, but without the extra output you would be giving by pedaling hard (if you don't pedal when using throttle). Still nice to have nonetheless. The other issue with the M600 is the cranks are a bit long and pedal strike can be annoying so it may help in this scenario as well.

Since it's relevant to this thread for comparison, I'll add that the Motobecane has a Shimano E8000 motor which is rated at 250W of power and a peak of 70Nm torque. I guess that motor can be delimited, but the power is still low. I'd view that bike as more power assist. That bike was listed for $4k. The M600 version seems like a way better deal at 500W and 120Nm of torque for $2.9k..

This Dengfu carbon is about $3.5k for the 'standard' setup, with a 500W (120Nm) Bafang. I can't find weight, but he mentions being under 52 lb. or so? This bike blows away everything else I've found for the money. Personally, I'd go with the Motobecane because of the ease of dealing with a US seller and similar specs.

Looking at the Giant website, it's a bit frustrating. I know they use very nicely calibrated pedal assist Yamaha motors, but they don't list torque or wattage anywhere easy to find. Anyone have a link?

Also, I found this video super interesting. Banshee, you might like. He talks a lot about realities and tradeoffs in engineering, not just about Luna. Checks out by my experience..

Luna Cycle Apollo

Distributors and builders of life changing electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

After watching the full clip, and reading all the reviews below, is there any other American or Canadian e-bike company like Luna? This guy thoroughly knows his stuff, the industry, the struggles, and the actual reality of delivering on promises. I wasn't going to buy a Luna until I watched this video, but he's got me sold. Dengfu (which is a great deal, and apparently their frame supplier) is not that much cheaper, and guaranteed has not nearly the same engineering time put into it. I'm thoroughly impressed with this guy. Are there other bike brands in America that do detailed innovation and custom builds like this?