Haibike AllMtn Plus vs FullSeven RX

[Bicyclista]

I wonder whether you all who probably have more experience with mountain e-bikes than I do could help me make a decision between these two Haibike models. Unfortunatley, my LBS does not have demos, in my size, of these two models, so I can't simply ride them and decide.

I am attracted to the 3-inch tires of the AllMtn Plus and to the smooth Bosch motor and proven reliability of the FullSeven RX. Both use 27.5-inch wheels. Being able to ride rough terrain on 3-inch tires would be a plus, and so would be a smooth and reliable motor. Unfortunately, Haibike does not offer a FullSeven with Bosch motor and 3-inch tires!

The AllMtn Plus uses a Yamaha motor, which produces slightly more torque than the Bosch, but is not as smooth (when shifting) as the Bosch, nor does it have as proven a reliability track record as the Bosch. Advantage Bosch.

On the other hand, the FullSeven RX comes with 2.25-inch tires, significantly less wide than the 3-inch tires of the AllMtn Plus. In sand, snow, DG, and loose gravel, advantage AllMtn Plus.

Both bikes are full-suspension, a very attractive quality in e-mountain bikes due to the higher speeds in going over bumps. Haibike has a good system addressing varying chain tension in a rear suspension.

I would give a slight advantage to the quality of components of the FullSeven RX.

The fact that you can jailbreak the Bosch motor is a plus. I don't know if you can jailbreak the Yamaha motor. I'm talking about bypassing the governor (and voiding the warranty) to get motor assist beyond 20 mph.

What would you do?

 

[pxpaulx]

I love the Yamaha motor. Don't forget they are Yamaha! I wouldn't worry about reliability, I believe they have been making electric bike motors for many years in Japan as well.

The shifting difference between the two is also overrated. If you know how to ease off paddling for a gear shift, you'll be good to go. If not you'll learn in about ten minutes. My wife is not a really experienced rider and she has never said a peep about it.

 

[Bicyclista]

Thank you for your comments, pxpaulx. Good to know about the Yamaha reliability, and yes, I suppose it would be easy to learn how to shift smoothly. Kinda like using a clutch with a manual transmission—easier, actually.

The 3-inch fatty tires are the main attraction of the AllMthn Plus!

And the overall integration of the frame, motor, battery, and components is the big attraction of the FullSeven RX!

Still undecided!

 

[pxpaulx]

The shifting really is seamless. The torque sensor is running thousands of calculations a minute, the engine lifts pretty much the instant you ease off the pedal stroke. Actually, easing off isn't the right term...I'd compare it to snapping my fingers, about as close to instant without grinding as you can get. The shift sensing simply should not be a factor in a decision between these bikes.

For what it's worth, I rode the Bosch and found it to ride similarly to my easy motion evo snow. We went there to buy my wife a new bike, she ended up with the hard life sduro sl. I should have tried the sduro when I was there, I would've saved myself two hundred bucks in shipping costs! I liked hers so much when I rode it at home that I ordered mine the next week.

I know Ravi had said the new bulls bikes are the closest to a true bike riding experience with power. I felt the same with the sduro.

 

[Jan]

I wonder whether you all who probably have more experience with mountain e-bikes than I do could help me make a decision between these two Haibike models. Unfortunatley, my LBS does not have demos, in my size, of these two models, so I can't simply ride them and decide.

I am attracted to the 3-inch tires of the AllMtn Plus and to the smooth Bosch motor and proven reliability of the FullSeven RX. Both use 27.5-inch wheels. Being able to ride rough terrain on 3-inch tires would be a plus, and so would be a smooth and reliable motor. Unfortunately, Haibike does not offer a FullSeven with Bosch motor and 3-inch tires!

The AllMtn Plus uses a Yamaha motor, which produces slightly more torque than the Bosch, but is not as smooth (when shifting) as the Bosch, nor does it have as proven a reliability track record as the Bosch. Advantage Bosch.

On the other hand, the FullSeven RX comes with 2.25-inch tires, significantly less wide than the 3-inch tires of the AllMtn Plus. In sand, snow, DG, and loose gravel, advantage AllMtn Plus.

Both bikes are full-suspension, a very attractive quality in e-mountain bikes due to the higher speeds in going over bumps. Haibike has a good system addressing varying chain tension in a rear suspension.

I would give a slight advantage to the quality of components of the FullSeven RX.

The fact that you can jailbreak the Bosch motor is a plus. I don't know if you can jailbreak the Yamaha motor. I'm talking about bypassing the governor (and voiding the warranty) to get motor assist beyond 20 mph.

What would you do?

Well I just got my Fullseven S RX (Yes, 'S') Speed pedalec. I've already got over 500 miles on it in less than a month. I briefly tried the Yamaha, so I'm not sure if I can give you an accurate comparison. I can, however, tell you that I had the Transx mid drive system and absolutely loved it. Great first mid drive. It definitely "weened" me off those hub motors. That said, going from a Transx (which I still like) and jumping on a Bosch is like going from a trike to a Cadillac. So extremely amazing. I must admit, I do miss that little taste of throttle the Izip motor provides on the high-gear-stand-still start. I tried both the Yamaha and the Brose. Ravi does like the Brose and suggested I go in that direction. Although he has way more experience than I do, I respectfully disagree. I am really sold on the Bosch system. Lenny's prices are so low that the cost difference is definitely worth the upgrade.

Here's what I must clarify: if you're going to ride primarily off-road, get the Bosch CX motor, not the Performance Line that comes in the RX. You really do need the torque. If you can't afford the Bosch CX line, then I would suggest the Yamaha. The Bosch is really worth the smooth shifting, and, in my opinion it totally beats both Brose and Yamaha. But higher torque overrides the shifting experience in off-roading. When you compare the CX to the Yamaha, it's true that Yamaha is ahead in terms of torque, but the difference is so slight, that smooth shifting definitely makes CX the winner.

The reason I chose the Fullseven S RX is because I'm an 80/20 rider. That is I only do about 20% off-road and it's not extremely technical. Albeit, it is more than a road bike could handle. The Fullseven is an awesome commuter bike if about 20% of your commute is off-road. Personally, I wouldn't recommend the Fullseven RX for off-roading. I would go with the higher torque of the Yamaha. However, if you're going to use the bike for pavement (at least 40%), I would HIGHLY recommend the Fullseven S RX. If you do about 50/50, get two bikes. Now I'm looking at the ST2s.

Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll be happy. I find it extremely challenging to be disappointed with any Ebike purchase. . . Heck, there was actually a time I was completely satisfied with my hub motors. Sometimes "living and learning" is the fun part.

 

[Bicyclista]

Jan, thank you for taking the time to post your extensive comments. Very helpful.

Unfortunately, Haibike does not offer a full suspension, Bosch CX motor, 27.5 plus (i.e. 3" tires) bike. I just glanced through their 51-model (!) 2016 lineup, and the only full suspension, 27.5 plus bike offered is the AllMtn Plus with Yamaha motor. Right now, based partly on your comments and pxpaulx's comments, I am leaning towards the AllMtn Plus.

 

[Jan]

Wow @Bicyclista, it looks like you did your homework. If you're like me, you've probably already started talking yourself into the AllMtn Plus. At the risk of introducing just a twinge of cognitive dissonance, may I humbly make a bold suggestion? Check out the Izip E3 Peak DS. I know, I know, Yamaha and Bosch totally blow away the Transx mid drive, but if you get a chance, check it out. The Izip actually has 73 n/m of torque, and even though it's not too kosher now, a quick start throttle. That's the one thing my Bosch doesn't have that I miss. It offers 650b tires. You may have to put a chain stay on the front. This is a great bike, and I've seen it going for about half of what you would pay for a Yamaha (so hello extra battery). Yeah, there's a bit of "trash talk" given to the Izip Peak line, but that comes from people who have never tested them. My Mtm bike with the Transx is the best workhorse. Best of all, it is a speed pedalec. So you've got more torque and more speed. No one can beat me in on my Transx, if it's all pedal and no throttle use. Yes, the gauntlet has been drop; the proverbial line in the sand has been drawn, bring me your best on a neck-to-neck pedal battle.

Anyway, if you haven't consider it, I would definitely encourage you to at least look at the specs: more torque, higher speed, and cheaper. The components aren't bad, either. . . . gee, now, I'm talking myself into one. Actually, I came pretty close to getting one, but I already have one of the Izip Peak models, so I opted for a Bosch. Hands down the Bosch system is the best (albeit the Tranx is faster). I would put the Izip second to the Bosch over the Yamaha. Granted, the Yamaha is a bit smoother but not for the price differentiation. Hope that helps.

 

[EddieJ]

From my extensive off road experience, the Performance Line motor has proved to be a very good motor for off-road use. Virtually all of my riding is off road, and I ride throughout the year in conditions that could often be considered extreme, both in respect of mud and often elevation gain.
In fact the Performance Line motor has the advantage over the CX motor of being more frugal in respect of battery consumption. I'd even go as far as to say that when comparing a CX powered eMTB using the larger 500wh battery, that a Performance Line powered eMTB with the usual 400wh battery, proves to be better in respect of range.
I have also yet to find any hill or mountain that the Performance Line motor has failed to tackle with relative ease, and it is simply a matter of using correct riding technique, gearing and power settings.
The Performance Line motor also has an edge on climbs that are lacking in traction. The power delivery is softer, and makes tricky steep climbing slightly easier.

Even the Active Line motor, whilst lacking in torque, still proves to be competent in many an off road situation. Again good riding practice, and possibly a change of final drive gearing to match terrain, is all that is required.

In real world terms, I'd say that the CX motor give a one gear advantage over the Performance Line motor, but that is neither here nor there in the scheme things.

Both of my current eMTB's use the CX motor, the first came fitted with it as standard, and the second has been retrofitted by Bosch for field testing purposes.

To establish what is a better power unit for any given rider, would first require an in depth insight into the proposed owners, health, weight, fitness level, location, terrain, and ride conditions.

Like many, I had initial issues with chain suck on the Bosch motors. This occurred in wet and muddy conditions, but after simply engaging the clutch mechanism, as fitted to any good quality rear derailleur and almost now standard on quality eMTB's, the problem has never arisen since and all is good. Depending upon the conditions that you might find your self riding in, front sprocket wear can also be pretty high on the Bosch motors. I guess that I get through a 15T front sprocket at roughly 500 mile intervals. Others riding in more mechanically friendly environments, can average 2,000 plus miles.

If your riding conditions are predominantly dry, then I'd wager that you would get the higher end scale of wear and tear. The soil conditions in my part of the UK are both very acidic and harsh, and act like grinding paste.

If I were to run a Yamaha motor, I would still suffer wear at a possibly higher than average rate, but with the Yamaha motor having a larger sprocket size, this wear would be more evenly spread over a greater area of teeth, and would be less obvious.


I also haven't held a Yamaha battery side by side with a Bosch battery, but the Bosch battery does fit comfortably into a CamelBak Mule, which can make the transportation of a spare battery an option.

I don't ride in sand or snow, but the latter is only because we don't tend to have any, but for everything else that I ride on be that mud, grass, dry and wet roots, rocks and loose shale surfaces, and fast down hill, I have always found 2.25 to be fine. That size choice is the maximum that I can sensibly use without removing chainstay clearance, so my options are limited. As most down hill orientated tyre are 2.3 plus, there is clearly support and evidence to support a wider tyre choice. As said though, I have never been found wanting for more.
It does seem as though that with fat bikes and the increasing trend towards plus sizes, that the market trend is changing in that direction. Youtube is a very valuable resource of information in respect of tyre advice.

In respect of bike sizing, I really would recommend a way of trying a bike out. You are proposing to make a very expensive investment, and it would be a shame not to get exactly what you want/require. I all too often see sales adverts or comments from people disappointed because they have bought the wrong size, usually it is an over size frame. Frustratingly I fall in an awkward between size, and go for the larger size frames. This is good in many respect for me, but it certainly also works massively against me when it comes to tricky terrain. I'd say that opting for a slightly smaller size frame, is always going to make for a safer bet than an over size frame. Please try a few out though, and note that they certainly vary between manufacturers.

Enjoy the research, and good luck with which ever bike that you decide upon.

 

[MLB]

A Bosch Performance line bike is a fantastic on And off road bike. To suggest anything other is just silly. If you like the Yammy better, good for you. Sure doens't make the FS RX a less than stellar off road weapon.
LOVE it.

 

[TrevorB]

Yamaha have just released new drive system, checkout german emtb magazine. It has closed gap with Bosch may actually be better.
If you are willing to wait, it should appear in Hsibike 2017 range.

 

[Bicyclista]

Thank you all for your comments. EddieJ, in particular, thank you for taking the time to write your extensive comments. Very helpful! I agree with EddieJ that proper sizing is probably one of the most important aspect of selecting a new bike. To that end I did try a couple of Haibikes at my LBS and confirmed my size.

Yes, TrevorB, in 2017 Haibike appears to offer an even more extensive line of electric bikes. In addition to the new Yamaha drive system, they offer more bikes with the "Plus" tires (i.e. fatty 3-inch tires), including some with Bosch motors. However, it is uncertain whether all those will be imported to the U.S.

I made a decision and ordered the Haibike FullSeven AllMtn Plus!

 

[EddieJ]

Congratulations.

I'm certain that you will love it.