fat bike advice to my eye doc

[Chazmo]

Hi gang,

I wrote the letter below to summarize my thoughts and information on fat ebikes to my eye doctor who’s interested in going down the same route I have. I thought I’d post it here to see if anyone feels there’s elaboration/correction I should make. I express a lot of my fairly novice personal opinions within, so of course you’re welcome to disagree with them. And I’m sure many of you will disagree with my recommendation(s), but I welcome any feedback especially if there’s any obvious brand/choice that I missed.

— letter follows —

I've been composing this for you regarding fat tire ebikes and it's taken me a while to put all my thoughts and info together for you. I hope this is of some value.

First of all, my actual experience is about a year in the making since I bought my bike direct from the manufacturer (Juiced Bikes) last year and assembled it at my house. After putting 1000mi on it through the summer, Juiced shut down and went away. So, I've become something of a do-it-yourself hobbyist now in order to fix my bike (it's had several problems needing surgery) and keep it running for a few years. I've had to buy parts online and even drive to NJ to pick up a spare bike for parts. It's been an adventure in many ways.

I really hadn't ridden my old mountain bike for about 5 years when I started getting excited as electrified fat tire (4"+ wide tires) bikes started getting popular. The whole concept really appealed to me. As a former avid mountain biker, I was interested in the relaxed mountain bike geometry and I knew it would suit me well. There are many other types of ebikes out there, including road, cargo, city-style bikes, and dirt bikes.

When shopping for fatties, there are a few key differences among the choices. Here's where things get dizzying and if you have any questions, just write back. Here's the list of considerations, in order.

1. Prices. All over the map. I paid about $1500 for the bike, new, from San Diego, and I've put about that much into it for a variety of upgrades from the factory and spare parts. My recommendation is for you to plan to spend between $1K and $2K to have a reasonable quality bike, but there are good reasons for spending more (I'll get there) if you know you're going to be in this for, say, 5 years or more. My opinion anyway.

2. Technology/Power. The most recent, bleeding-edge bikes offer 52V batteries and over 1000W of power (usually peaking around 2000). The previous generation (most of the bikes I'll recommend, below) use 48V batteries and give you 750W of power (usually peaking a little over 1000). For rear hub motor bikes I recommend going no less than 750W. For mid-drive you could go lower. And that brings me to the next consideration...

3. Rear hub motor vs. mid-drive. I'm going to recommend a rear hub motor drive for your fatty. But, technical riders and many others love mid-drives motors. There are good reasons for that. Essentially, the mid drive adds power to the pedal crank making you like a superman on the pedals. A hub motor assists with spinning the wheel independently of the crank/gears. Mid-drives are pedal-assist only whereas hub motors can power the bike without pedaling, and many/most come with a throttle. For my purposes, I almost never use the throttle (without pedaling) unless I'm crossing an intersection or just standing up on the bike to give my tush a break. I could certainly use/love a mid-drive, but I'm quite happy with the hub drive.

4. Step thru vs. not. It's quite a bit easier to handle a bike that has no top tube. Some of the bikes I'll point you at below are step thru, most aren't. Mine isn't. But I'll be honest that handling a 75 pound bike and kicking your leg over it while laying it over a little bit takes a bit of getting used to. You seem like a strong guy so it's probably not a necessity, but step thru would be easier to get used to.

5. Rear suspension vs hard-tail. All fatties have front suspension forks (of various quality). Mine was crappy and it broke so I had to replace it recently. Anyway, quality of the fork is definitely something to factor in. But, some bikes (not mine) are offered with full suspension (i.e., rear shock), and I think that's really cool. But, I'm a hard-tail kind of guy and even on my mountain bike I never went full suspension. Having said that, there are a few times that I've been bounced out of my saddle and that can be scary. If I have to buy another bike down the road I may go upscale and may include a full suspension.

6. 26" vs. 20" wheels. I'm just going to recommend getting 26" wheels to you as that's just more mountain-bike-like, but there are plenty of good smaller wheeled models (mostly 20") with 4"-wide tires that might fit the bill.

7. Folding vs. not. There are a number of fat ebikes that fold at the bottom bracket. These are cool, but still very heavy. That can be useful if you have a small storage area for the bike or if you want to put it in a vehicle without a rack. FYI, you'll need a special rack to transport a fatty on your car/truck unless you have another person to help you lift one of these monsters. I don't and I ride from my house every time.

8. Security. Not sure where you live or where you want to ride, but there's a lot of theft going on in the more urban areas. My bike came with a lock and key to remove the battery. It also came with a compartment in the battery to mount an Apple AirTag, which is a tracking device if you're not already familiar with those. I'm a huge fan of the AirTag!

OK, I've given you most of the facets you need to consider. Below is a list I've compiled of fat ebikes that I know about. There are MANY more out there, but here's where I have to warn you. If you buy direct, you may face a situation like I have where an established brand just vanishes off the face of the earth. So, it might be best to poll all the local bike shops and see if you can do test rides and see what they have. I'm still going to recommend direct sale and home delivery to you as that's still the way to get the best technology for a reasonable price. However, if you're willing to spend more for quality, local service then that's totally reasonable.

The most common bikes that I know of out there are the three listed below, which may not have local stores. I'm going to recommend that you shop Aventon, which is perhaps the most popular fat ebike that I know of around here (which is a good thing for parts and service) plus I think there's a shop in Ayer. The Rad is probably the best deal.

aventon: dealer in Ayer. https://www.aventon.com/products/aventure2-ebike?variant=42255489466563
rad: https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/fat-tire-electric-bikes radrover (very good deal)

Lectric: https://lectricebikes.com/

Some others that I know of that looked good:

velotric: https://www.velotricbike.com/products/velotric-nomad-1

himiway https://himiwaybike.com/pages/uscenter

Heybike brawn: https://www.heybike.com/products/heybike-brawn-electric-bike?variant=44052297482459

voltbike yukon: https://voltbike.com/products/yukon-750-limited

MS2 All terrain: https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collections/all-terrain-r750-series/products/all-terrain-electric-fat-bike

If you really want to go high-end, look at the Norco or Specialized. Specialized is not leading-edge technically, but they're extremely well-built, there are stores that carry them, and you'd have a Vado for a lifetime. The Norco is just awesome, but too expensive.

Norco bigfoot (expensive but nice components. (internal battery)

specialized vado (expensive and not bleeding edge) https://www.specialized.com/au/en/turbo-vado-30/p/206163?color=348376-206163

The final thing I want to mention is that the reason a lot of these brands are facing extinction is cheap, poor imports from China. If you look on Amazon, sure, you can get in on this craze for under $500, but these bikes will be in the trash in short order. Just my opinion. But, here for reference. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ebike+fa...refix=ebike+fat+tire,aps,179&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Two important things I didn't see:

1. Your power recommendations go beyond the legal limits for a true ebike (which doesn't require license, registration, or insurance to operate on public streets) and therefore beyond legal MUP and trail access just about everywhere. California is actively cracking down on violators — especially very high-power e-motorcycles sold as ebikes but without functional pedals, like Surrons and Super73s. At the very least, your doc should be aware.

2. Downsides of fat tires — including greater weight and rolling resistance, reduced responsiveness to rider inputs, and less precise handing. These are by no means deal-killers for many riders, but again, your doc should be aware that there are some significant trade-offs here.

Recommend that he test some fat and normal tire ebikes (say, 2.0-2.6 inch), and both hub- and mid-drive options for himself before making these important trade-offs. Especially on some representative local hills.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Specialized is not leading-edge technically

Incorrect. Specialized has been setting trends for good e-bikes since 2015.
Examples:

• The Levo has been a trend setter in e-MTB
• Specialized had the SL family of lightweight low power mid-drive e-bikes when all the competition could only muster hub-drives for their light e-bikes
• Nothing beats the Specialized electronics and connectivity.

 

[Chazmo]

Incorrect. Specialized has been setting trends for good e-bikes since 2015.
Examples:

• The Levo has been a trend setter in e-MTB
• Specialized had the SL family of lightweight low power mid-drive e-bikes when all the competition could only muster hub-drives for their light e-bikes
• Nothing beats the Specialized electronics and connectivity.

OK, that’s fair. I think I got the wrong idea listening to some “smoking Vado” jokes. Thanks, I’ll pass this along too!

 

[Chargeride]

Ordinary tyres can have pretty good grip on mud, gravel, snow, slab and still run quiet on tarmac.
Fatties will be quiet unless you want mud and snow grip, then you'll need tyres that sound like a bluebottle driving a tractor over a cobbled street..

 

[PCeBiker]

OK, that’s fair. I think I got the wrong idea listening to some “smoking Vado” jokes. Thanks, I’ll pass this along too!

@PedalUma started all that, then I jumped on board to elaborate on the Vado joke.

I actually DO Think Specialized is a Great choice if you can afford it.

They have lots of dealers Everywhere, and even if you don't have a local shop, they are still great with service and repair and can accommodate you.

If someone new to ebikes doesn't want to be a mechanic, and just wants to ride worry free without all the maintenance crap, then a new Specialized e-bike is more than a great option.

Plus, you also get the privilege of snobbery while riding it.

You don't need to know how it works (you're not even allowed to know), you just have to own one to be envied by others.

 

[PCeBiker]

Ordinary tyres can have pretty good grip on mud, gravel, snow, slab and still run quiet on tarmac.

I remember giving in to the whole "Fatbike" thing and bought a fat bike.
(I thought fat wheels looked stupid, but I've gotten used to it.)

Then I bought my second ebike that had a fat bike frame but only semi-fat nobby tires on 27.5" wheels and swapped out the tires for Schwalbe Super Moto-X 27.5" X 2.8" street treaded tires with lower rolling resistance.

PS,.. Don't cheap out on tires.

They're the only thing touching the ground. (unless you wipe out)

Getting a flat can really suck on an ebike (especially a fatbike hub drive) and quality tires gave Much better puncture protection.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

If someone new to ebikes doesn't want to be a mechanic, and just wants to ride worry free without all the maintenance crap, then a new Specialized e-bike is more than a great option.

Plus, you also get the privilege of snobbery while riding it.

That's what I thought when I bought my Vado SL. Turns out, you have to fork over an extra $200 for that option.
;^}

Can't speak to other Specialized ebikes, but after 5 months and 1,300 miles, I'm more impressed than ever at the way they integrated the Vado SL 5.0's design from end to end — well, except for the rear rack on the EQ package.

That kind of know-how is worth a lot, and it pays off every time I ride.

 

[PCeBiker]

Can't speak to other Specialized ebikes,

@PedalUma rides a Vado to work now, and says he has to kick the battery to get it going and had to strap down the battery.

I think mounting a battery upside-down is a bad idea in general, but a company like Specialized should have figured that out in the R&D phase and designed a better battery mounting system.
Shame on Specialized !!,..

Imagine if you designed a car where the gas tank might fall off because the mounting bracket wasn't properly designed?

 

[PCeBiker]

,.. tyres that sound like a bluebottle driving a tractor over a cobbled street..

I had to Google that,..

A bottle of Blue has a different meaning in Canada ,..

It comes in cans too.

I thought you guys called your cops "Paddy's" ?
As in "paddy wagon" (a box full of drunkards )

 

[PCeBiker]

3. Rear hub motor vs. mid-drive. Essentially, the mid drive adds power to the pedal crank making you like a superman on the pedals. A hub motor assists with spinning the wheel independently of the crank/gears.

When I bought my first e-bike, I bought a hub drive because I didn't want to spend $1,000 more for the e-bike I preferred.

A full suspension Voltbike Enduro mid-drive,..

When I bought my second e-bike, I bought a Voltbike Outback hub-drive, not because it was $400 cheaper, but because I don't have any hills to climb and I didn't want the added cost and fuss of a mid-drive.

Mid-drives put ALL The power of both the rider and motor through the driveline which can mean over 160 Nm of torque on the drive-line even if the rider isn't pedaling.

I don't bother pedaling (which isn't illegal) but I didn't want to wear out my driveline if I'm not pedaling anyway.

Essentially, the mid drive adds power to the pedal crank making you like a superman on the pedals.

A hub-drive can Definitely make you feel like superman even if you've only got a 750w hub motor. (which is legal in the US)
Not so much climbing a mountain road though, and you're more aware of the power provided by the motor with a poorly programmed cadence sensing motor.

Mid-drives are pedal-assist only whereas hub motors can power the bike without pedaling, and many/most come with a throttle.

As it turned out, my brother-in-law bought the mid-drive Voltbike Enduro, and it does indeed have a throttle.

He can be as lazy as me, and his e-bike will allow him to slack off,..
BUT, He has to keep pedaling to keep the gears shiftng as his e-bike speeds up or slows down (or he can just leave it in high gear and tear the hell out of his driveline).

For my purposes, I almost never use the throttle (without pedaling)

I almost never pedal, but throttle or no throttle, mid-drive or hub-drive, a hub-drive ebike with a slacker like me "behind the wheel" can have the driveline last FOREVER, or until it rusts out anyway.

I still like having my driveline intact though because pedaling my ebike (which is entirely possible) can always get me home if I run out of juice.

You can always pedal a hub-drive if you have a motor failure or dead battery, and you can always throttle it home if you're driveline fails, but if your driveline fails on a mid-drive, you're outta luck, unless you can fix it.


One other thing that I don't like about the mid-drive Enduro (and I think all mid-drives?) is that it has no brake cut-off switches.


I don't care if the Enduro is programmed to kill the motor if the rider isn't pedaling and not on the throttle.

s*it is always going to happen, and I want an Emergency Kill Switch available.




I remember reading about a guy in his pickup truck where the damn thing decided to go to full throttle.
He tried everything to slow it down.
First he burned out his brakes, then he couldn't get it out of gear or turn the ignition switch off.

He dialed 911 as he was approaching a town going over 100 mph.
Luckily, there was a cop close by who raced up from behind him, got in front of him and locked up his brakes to stop both vehicles just before he got into the town.

I trust stupid people more than I'd ever want to trust AI.

Was the pickup truck programmed to commit suicide?
Why would a pickup truck be programmed to go to full throttle and ignore the drivers input?

I guess it was just a glitch or virus or something?

 

[PedalUma]

he has to kick the battery to get it going and had to strap down the battery

The battery tray needs adjustment and I am always working on other people's bikes with no time for my own. It is so ironic that I ended up with a Vado and am enrolled in Specialized service training at SBCU. Here is another funny thing. I have always trimmed electrical wires so they are neat, but never trim pre-blead brake lines. Now I am not allowed to solder and am required to trim brake lines, leaving coils of rat's nest wires and a hydraulic fluid mess.

 

[PCeBiker]

,.. It is so ironic that I ended up with a Vado

Yeah, go figure??
I remember when I first joined the forum and you advised me to get Schwalbe tires because I said my tires were bald (I meant to say street tread.)

ET T1000 run on question.

i have a new ET T1000 i just got it yesterday. the bike has about 1 1/2-2 second run-on. once you stop pedaling the motor still pushes you forward for that couple of seconds. this has caught me off guard a couple of times. one of those times crashing into the garbage cans. do all T1000 do...

forums.electricbikereview.com

Then you asked if I could give your website a few thumbs up,..

Then I suggested selling an e-bike that had these "upgrades" that I would like to see on my e-bike,..

Now here you are, finally taking my advice and selling fat bikes to fat people.

Can I get one with a trailer hitch that is welded into the frame?


I think that you should secretly pimp out your Vado so that you can still smoke Vados even though you don't actually smoke Vado.

 

[Chargeride]

I had to Google that,..


View attachment 189669


A bottle of Blue has a different meaning in Canada ,..


View attachment 189670



It comes in cans too.

I thought you guys called your cops "Paddy's" ?
As in "paddy wagon" (a box full of drunkards )

Its a large buzzing fly, I think it should be blue bottle.

 

[PedalUma]

Donald Duck, you are nuts and need a Ride1Up DRT, it can be in off-road mode to be customized to do about 40 mph on the throttle on private land. The pedals are like a T-Rex's arms. I like bikes that feel real at a cadence of 70 plus and are legal anywhere. Flies with green eyes have eaten doggie doo.

.

 

[Chargeride]

Yup, its a poo fly.

 

[PCeBiker]

Donald Duck,

My name is Daffy

You are nuts

I am a daffed named Daffy

and need a Ride1Up DRT, it can be in off-road mode to be customized to do about 40 mph on the throttle on private land.

Just the frame is all I want, especially the rake angle.

The pedals are like a T-Rex's arms.

I'd prefer highway pegs actually.

I like bikes that feel real at a cadence of 70 plus and are legal anywhere.

I like bikes that ride like a motorcycle with a cadence of Zero and are legal all over Canada (max 32 kph)

Flies with green eyes have eaten doggie doo.

Yeah, but Deer Flies are worse than s*it Flies, Mosquitoes, and Blackflies.

They're built like a bigger sporty version of a house fly,..

Bees and Wasps are fine if you don't piss them off, but Deer flies actively hunt humans.

They love to bite ankles at the beach, then half your foot swells up for a week and hurts like hell.
Some people go into anaphylactic shock.



The best cartoon and my favorite cartoon character when I was a kid,..

I fricken see a duck ?
I guess I'm the goat?
(at 4:12 in cartoon)
Then at 4:20, Daffy does a "Shotgun" of Vado.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@PedalUma rides a Vado to work now, and says he has to kick the battery to get it going and had to strap down the battery.

PedalUma cannot even tell a Vado from a Vado SL*, so what would you think of his qualifications as of a bike mechanic? Everything is OK with the Vado. What is wrong is Uma being constantly high.
No-one except him experiences issues with the Vado battery. I'd say the new battery mount design is even a great improvement over the previous top-side layout.
I'm positive about thinking of him as of the legendary bike mechanic who can mismatch the pedals upon installing them
-------------
*) Please find a Vado SL thread where Uma is complaining about his Vado battery falling out (everybody except him knows the Vado SL battery is irremovable...)

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

If you were around from the beginning like I was, you would know the apex of fat tire e-mountain bikes has come and passed. This site alone, when Court was running it, was probably as big an influence on e-fat tired mtb sales in the us as anyone else. It's worth it just to check out his reviews on the Felt Outfitter, Haibike FatSix and Haibike Full FatSix.

E-Fat MTB for me will always be defined as a high end, up-scale components, premium quality mid drive bikes. Everything else is just a cheap, Chinese facsimile of these early, 2016 to 2020 Euro-prototypes.

Dig far enough on the video reviews here to find Court's review of the Felt Outfitter; a hard tail, Rock Shox Bluto, Bosch mid drive....... his review of the original Haibike FatSix and the later Haibike Full FatSix. During that time, Bulls had their Bosch powered Monster fat bikes. All of these bikes equal the top tier of fat tired, e-mountain bikes. I want to think that even Specialized, for a very short time, had a fat tired MTB. But all fell by the wayside; I suppose by small sales. The only mid drive, fat tired ebike that interests me these days would be the Bosch powered Tern Orox; but at that, it's a cargo-styled ebike with an extra long wheelbase.

But that's just my opinion. If the OP is perfectly happy with his Juiced; in the end, that is all that counts! The main thing is that these fat tired ebikes are getting people enthused enough to go off-trail to see what adventures lie ahead and to me, that is the only freaking thing that matters!!!!!

 

[Chazmo]

If you were around from the beginning like I was, you would know the apex of fat tire e-mountain bikes has come and passed.

Hehehe. Love your perspective, Mike. Truth is, I was around long before the beginning. For me it was being around during the strong growth/development of the mountain bike in the Bay Area in the early 1990s. I was there with my CA friends, riding the hills in Marin and getting mountain bike tickets from the water cops for going too fast down the trails of the back side of Mt. Tamalpais. Oddly, they never cited me over for going too fast up the mountain where the hikers and equestrians actually would’ve been spooked! (I was never a fast climber and never threatened a pedestrian or equestrian, just to be clear!!)

In all seriousness, though, I certainly was watching the development of these fat ebikes from afar as, unfortunately, there were no room in my life for biking. I had tried to ride a non-assisted fatty at some family vacation in Maine in the 2000s when I realized you had to be a superman to actually enjoy riding one. But I loved the concept. I really gave up riding almost entirely during those years. It’s only recently, in retirement and divorce, that biking has come back to me and that the fat ebike is the tool.

My unfortunate perspective is that commodity bikes are squeezing out the really good stuff. But I’m not sure what you mean by “apex.” As for technology, it seems like new/cool gear is always popping up, electronics are improving, and hopefully some new battery and motor technologies are on the way. And, as for adoption, well, there seems to be a lot of fat ebikes continuing to crop up. You probably mean high-end / quality… You’re probably right about that, but I’ll stay optimistic since I’m technically a newbie.

The only mid drive, fat tired ebike that interests me these days would be the Bosch powered Tern Orox; but at that, it's a cargo-styled ebike with an extra long wheelbase.

Shimano lists several customers of their stuff, including Norco. I haven’t looked around much at many of these, but they seem nice. I haven’t studied Bosch stuff, but now that you mention it, Mike, I’m sure ebike components from them would be wonderful.

I’ll have to root around for those videos from the teens.

Just out of curiosity, Mike, and seriously not to poke the bear, but why are you attached to the mid-drive configuration?