Ergonomic adjustment / suspension stem for Gazelle bike?

[AvalancheRun]

Already at 100 miles on my C380 and loving it!

With the ebike power I've been doing 15-20 mile rides like nothing. I LOVE adventuring on this bike.

Only thing is, I have a history of carpal tunnel and use my hands a lot for work. After these long rides I'm noticing a little soreness in the wrists. Nowhere near as bad as my previous bike would give me in less than 5 miles of riding.

The other day I picked up the Redshift Shockstop suspension seatpost. Result was amazing. The bike floats over bumps. No weird movement under your butt either, like the suspension seatpost on the Gazelle Avignon.

So this brings me to the stem. The Gazelle already has an adjustable stem attachment to change the handle height/angle for a more upright, or sporty stance. I'm having a little trouble determining exactly how to recreate this with the Redshift (or Kinekt) suspension stems. The OEM stem attachment needs to be replaced by a stem extension to add height, then the suspension stem needs to be chosen (several angle options are available). I think the geometry of the C380 is excellent as-is, but so my inclination is to try to recreate that. The Redshift seems to push the handlebars forward quite a bit?

If anyone has gone through this process I would be extremely appreciative of your input!

 

[AvalancheRun]

Obligatory bridge pic

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You need to research the Redshift ShockStop stems yourself Avalanche! I think the stem you need is +30 degrees, 100 mm. I feel it would not change your riding position dramatically. Now, the next thing you need are the Innerbarends...

 

[antboy]

It can get complicated.
Depending on where the soreness is, you might not need a suspension stem, especially since you have a front fork (haven't seen a lot of reports on the two working together or not)
I'm not selling SQL stuff here, just scroll down for examples of what changes can be made to alleviate different specific pains.

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One thing that made a difference for me was rotating the winged Ergon grips (grips similar to yours) so that the palm rest was pointing up slightly, which kept my hand more in line with the forearm.
I also changed out my handlebars to bars with a 16 degree back sweep, which also helped a lot/

PS: I do have the Redshift 30 degree stem and it's great, but I ride a rigid fork. YMMV

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Depending on where the soreness is, you might not need a suspension stem, especially since you have a front fork (haven't seen a lot of reports on the two working together or not)

You are completely right. No suspension stem needed!

 

[AvalancheRun]

Thanks guys, will be trying all of these suggestions.

So far, I greatly lowered the front fork preload to where it gives a good bounce under my full weight. Tuned it similar to the Specialized Vados I rode. The absorption is noticable over bigger bumps.
Also adjusted the Ergon grips upward.

After a 23 mile ride today I'm feeling pretty good!

Based on how great this Redshift seatpost has been I ordered both the Kinekt (50 degree, 100 mm) and Redshift (30 degree, 100 mm) stem suspensions. Each change the geometry in different ways, so I will definitely add photos feedback later. On first glance the Redshift looks totally stealth, and even with a stem raiser weighs half of the Kinekt. The Kinekt is quite heavy.

 

[AvalancheRun]

500 mile update:

The Kinekt stem did not help at all. It added some unnerving movement while cornering, while also not reducing any bumps or road buzz. I suppose the suspension fork was already handling that task.

The Redshift stem seemed to reduce buzz, a little. Not too much though. I only road around 20 miles with the lightest elastomer. With that elastomer the handlebars really dive on hard braking. It didn't add any unnerving movements other than that. I have until tomorrow to return it and will likely do that.

The Redshift seatpost continues to amaze. I sit through almost any road, no matter how torn up. I only wish one would fit my wife’s bike, because I feel guilty enjoying this so much while she suffers over those crappy roads.

I adjusted the Gazelle stem to its highest position and that has been great. Been riding that way for the past 3 weeks. My wrists and hands have been feeling normal over that time. Also, adjusting the ergo grips helped, as did being conscious about regularly changing grip and hand position on the bike.

I may explore a wider knobbier tire for the dual benefit of comfort and a slight bit more off-road capability which could increase the viability of some gravel/mild off-road trails in town.

Does anyone have thoughts on moving from a 28x1.75 to a 28x2.2, or 27.5x2.4 tire? This may warrant a topic in the Gazelle forum.

 

[keithj69]

I ordered this from sqlabs (free) Give it a try and see if maybe something can help. Also look into the R.A.D. videos on youtube to help get adjusted. check out the playlist from joy of bike for fitting. It may help get you towards a comfortable position. I am working on it now myself.
edit. It kinda sounds like you are putting too much weight on your handlebars and relying on your wrists to hold you up. I have only watched the videos and stayed in a generic hotel to come up with that. Don't trust me. Research your position and go from there,

 

[sc00ter]

Slightly off subject but my wrist get hurting on any ride over 50 miles on anything 2 wheels. I use Grip Puppies on my scooter if going far and those plush foamy Grab On grips on my bmx bike. I've had mixed results with suspension stems on bicycles, nothing good enough (yet) to make try more brands.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Kinekt stem did not help at all. It added some unnerving movement while cornering, while also not reducing any bumps or road buzz. I suppose the suspension fork was already handling that task.

The Redshift stem seemed to reduce buzz, a little. Not too much though. I only road around 20 miles with the lightest elastomer. With that elastomer the handlebars really dive on hard braking. It didn't add any unnerving movements other than that. I have until tomorrow to return it and will likely do that.

Avalanche:
That is what I wrote in my Redshift ShockStop stem review:

The Redshift ShockStop Stem is suitable for:

• All types of bikes equipped with the rigid fork, and
• 1-1/8" A-HEAD steerer tube, and
• Drop bars or straight handlebars, and
• For all road types (paved or unpaved), but it is unsuitable for:
• Any bike equipped with any existing form of front suspension, or
• Any bike equipped with curved handlebars, or
• Riding off-road.

Does anything highlighted in red apply to your situation? Oh, yes, it does Moreover, using the softest elastomer is not what you want to do. With a rigid fork e-bike, the colour (softness) and number of elastomers are critical to the proper operation of the suspension stem. For instance, my mods to Vado SL moved more of my body weight on the bars, forcing me using two elastomers (blue + yellow) to increase the initial preload of the stem (as if it were a road bike ridden by a heavy person).

The issues you are describing on cornering might result from harmonic oscillations between the two suspension types, or from another kind of bad interaction between the suspension fork and stem.

Additionally, it is vital to set the Preload on the left leg of the suspension fork as it does not dive under your weight when the e-bike is stationary. The initial sag should not exceed 20% of the total fork travel. On a normal ride, only 75% of the travel is utilized.

Does anyone have thoughts on moving from a 28x1.75 to a 28x2.2, or 27.5x2.4 tire? This may warrant a topic in the Gazelle forum.

Avalanche, it is not the correct way of thinking The wheels of your e-bike have been designed as the whole living organism: hubs, spokes, rims, and the tyre size. For instance, the inner width of the rims dictates the optimal tyre width. There are clearance matters: How do you think a bigger tyre would fit your e-bike frame and fenders?

Now, you cannot use a 27.5" tyre on a 622 wheel.
Let me clarify it for you:

• The 27.5" wheel has the outer rim diameter of 584 mm, and the 28/29" wheel is 622 mm. Incompatible.
• The 622 mm wheels (700c) are described as 28" for tyre width below 50 mm (2") but as 29" for the tyre width from 50 mm (2") up.

The tyre ETRTO size of 50-622 (29x2") is ideal for your wheels. My Vado 6.0 has 50-622 wheels as yours, it has a very similar suspension fork and I could not fancy softer rides than I experience on my heavy e-bike. Also, your existing tyres can be very good for gravel or mild off-road. Try riding such a terrain before you start experimenting, please.

The only way to further soften your rides is to reduce the tyre pressure. And, to properly set up the suspension fork so it is not too soft.

 

[Catalyzt]

What Stefan is saying r.e. the diameter of the tire seems spot on, but on bikes with no fenders, it's not at all unusual to go to a slightly wider or narrower tire -- without changing the rim -- depending on the kind of riding you want to do.

I have never heard anyone else say this:

<< The wheels of your e-bike have been designed as the whole living organism: hubs, spokes, rims, and the tyre size. For instance, the inner width of the rims dictates the optimal tyre width. >>

However, it is certainly true that there are limits to how much wider or how much narrower you can go for a particular rim. It may be that there are limitations for the Gazelle that I am not aware of. For my bike, however, it came with 2.4, and I went to 2.2 for decreased rolling resistance because my bike is underpowered and I ride more pavement than most eMTB riders. I talked about it with my LBS for a few months before deciding to switch, and for me, it was a huge success, though I had to get used to the handling. The stock tire width was absolutely not right for me, partly because I only weigh 150 lbs and I'm six one.

Wider tires would make it easier to reduce tire pressure further, it would mean you can run less pressure, and less pressure should mean less vibration. However, be aware of the tradeoffs: More rolling resistance, etc.

FWIW, I agree with everything else Stefan said: Suggest trying the bike as is on gravel or easy trails, experiment with tire pressure with the tires you have. The information on mixing suspension stem with suspension fork is great, too-- I suspected something like this might be the case, but Stefan explained it really well.

 

[Catalyzt]

OT: Do you guys know about how much weight a Redshift seat post suspension would add? (I guess it depends on the weight of the post it is replacing, but assume a normal-- meaning long-- aluminum eMTB seat post.) Just wondering if you have an estimate, wild guess, etc. Are we talking half a pound or three pounds...?

 

[AvalancheRun]

Avalanche:
That is what I wrote in my Redshift ShockStop stem review:

Does anything highlighted in red apply to your situation? Oh, yes, it does Moreover, using the softest elastomer is not what you want to do. With a rigid fork e-bike, the colour (softness) and number of elastomers are critical to the proper operation of the suspension stem. For instance, my mods to Vado SL moved more of my body weight on the bars, forcing me using two elastomers (blue + yellow) to increase the initial preload of the stem (as if it were a road bike ridden by a heavy person).

Yup, your thread is what brought me to the RedShift stem in the first place.
Redshift's engineer told me that the stem can be very complimentary in combination with a suspension fork, and suggested giving it a try.

Will try experimenting with the others elastomers.

The issues you are describing on cornering might result from harmonic oscillations between the two suspension types, or from another kind of bad interaction between the suspension fork and stem.

Edit: no cornering issue with the Redshift, that was the Kinekt stem. The Redshift had some dive on hard braking, which was expected with the softest and not an issue.

Additionally, it is vital to set the Preload on the left leg of the suspension fork as it does not dive under your weight when the e-bike is stationary. The initial sag should not exceed 20% of the total fork travel. On a normal ride, only 75% of the travel is utilized.


Avalanche, it is not the correct way of thinking The wheels of your e-bike have been designed as the whole living organism: hubs, spokes, rims, and the tyre size. For instance, the inner width of the rims dictates the optimal tyre width. There are clearance matters: How do you think a bigger tyre would fit your e-bike frame and fenders?

I believe the Avignon version of the Ultimate uses a 28 X 2.2 for greater comfort.
The 27.5" tire is not for the 28" wheel, just pondering the idea of a wheel swap.

Now, you cannot use a 27.5" tyre on a 622 wheel.
Let me clarify it for you:

• The 27.5" wheel has the outer rim diameter of 584 mm, and the 28/29" wheel is 622 mm. Incompatible.
• The 622 mm wheels (700c) are described as 28" for tyre width below 50 mm (2") but as 29" for the tyre width from 50 mm (2") up.

The tyre ETRTO size of 50-622 (29x2") is ideal for your wheels. My Vado 6.0 has 50-622 wheels as yours, it has a very similar suspension fork and I could not fancy softer rides than I experience on my heavy e-bike. Also, your existing tyres can be very good for gravel or mild off-road. Try riding such a terrain before you start experimenting, please.

Oh, I've spent time on trails well beyond the limits of this bike and numerous times ended up hauling it out. The tires are not bad at all, but if a different tire brought more trail ability and comfort I would go ahead and try that.

The only way to further soften your rides is to reduce the tyre pressure. And, to properly set up the suspension fork so it is not too soft.

Thank you, I will try everything.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

have never heard anyone else say this:

<< The wheels of your e-bike have been designed as the whole living organism: hubs, spokes, rims, and the tyre size. For instance, the inner width of the rims dictates the optimal tyre width. >>

Attend a DT Swiss Dealer Training It is exactly what the authorized DT Swiss representative told me. He did not want to dictate how I would like my new rear Vado wheel built: he just gave me some hints and told me I should research the matter myself. One of his tips was to find a 32 spoke hole DT Swiss 350 rear hub with 6-bolt brake disk mount and a matching rim.

I did my homework. I could find the proper DT Swiss 350 12x148 mm rear hub with the HG freehub and the disk brake mount. I meticulously selected a rim that had 32 spoke holes, had a decent weight limit, a high ASME durability rating, and was made in advanced way. I gave up on the spoke selection: It was above my pay grade

The mechanic was satisfied with my choices and built a perfect wheel for me.

One of the things to consider was the inner rim width. My research made me understand the optimal inner rim width for 50 mm tyres was 27 mm. Unfortunately, DT Swiss only makes 25 or 30 mm rims in the type I wanted. My choice was 25 mm and the mechanic said I made the correct decision.

The greatest thing he said was: "You are a heavy person. Your e-bike is heavy, too. The motor is exerting terrible torque on the hub and spokes. Make a wise selection". I could not be more grateful to him for the free education!

P.S. I consulted the guy and asked him of WTB wheel components. He just laughed and said: "It's DT Swiss. The best of the best. WTB doesn't even remotely compare! But it is your choice, your money" After I made my choices, the man started liking me. Now, I am his VIP customer

 

[Stefan Mikes]

OT: Do you guys know about how much weight a Redshift seat post suspension would add? (I guess it depends on the weight of the post it is replacing, but assume a normal-- meaning long-- aluminum eMTB seat post.) Just wondering if you have an estimate, wild guess, etc. Are we talking half a pound or three pounds...?

It is a lightweight part. After all the mods I did to my Vado SL, I weighted the e-bike. To my surprise, it held the specified factory weight of 17 kg, only the front end became heavier (Innerbarends weigh some, too). Certainly, the 100 mm Redshift ShockStop stem is more lightweight than a 120 mm Specialized Comp Multi stem I use on the other e-bike.

The 100 mm +/-6 deg Redshift stem weighs 290 g or 10 oz (0.6 lb).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Oh, I've spent time on trails well beyond the limits of this bike and numerous times ended up hauling it out. The tires are not bad at all, but if a different tire brought more trail ability and comfort I would go ahead and try that.

The moment you should think of replacing your tyres with more aggressive ones is when your rear wheel has slipped in rough terrain. Otherwise, it makes no sense to waste good rubber you own.

One of the best tyres in your wheel/width size is the Specialized Electrak 2.0 Armadillo w/Gripton compound size 51-622 (a rare true two inches tyre). It is an amazing tyre that is almost slick but with excellent road grip, very fast rolling, totally silent, and puncture resistant; it is specifically designed for Speed E-Bikes. I have used the Electraks in the rough terrain, too. However, that tyre has slipped in an offroad puddle, causing a bad crash for me. I have replaced the Electraks with Schwalbe Smart Sams (as I believed those tyres would be more aggressive in rough terrain) and now I regret my decision!

 

[DiggyGun]

I had a bike fitting last year some time, mainly to sort out the saddle, but also he looked at my hand grip.

He ended up changing the brake lever angle to 30 degrees and did the same with the Ergon grips and horns.

This did help to reduce any tingling, plus I don’t grip as tight now, which also helps.

DG…

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If anyone complains on wrist aches/numbness with flat handlebars, it is hard to beat SQlab Innerbarends. The 411s can be installed together with any existing grips. The 410/402 must be purchased together with the 710 SQlab grips (for the flat bars).

Innerbarends are the closest approximation of the drop bar "hoods". They allow you keep the arms and elbows pretty close to your body. You do not hold onto IBEs; you rest the part of your hand between the index finger and thumb on IBEs, while the hand rests on the handlebar grip, and fingers delicately rest on the brake lever. Since I have installed IBEs on my two e-bikes, no numb hands anymore. The access to brake levers is instant, which is another bonus.

There are two things about IBEs you should be aware of:

• Installing the IBEs requires removing or loosening all components from the bars prior to IBEs setup; finding the correct angle for the Innerbarends can be frustrating;
• IBEs take a lot of space from the bars.

One of the best thing to improve the ride comfort (410/402 + 710). The consequence was the need to increase the Preload on the Redshift ShockStop stem (two elastomer pieces), as the setup brought my Vado SL closer to the road/gravel bike.

I use the 411s together with Ergon GP2 grips on the other e-bike. I spend at least 90% of the ride time in the Innerbarends.

Redshift's engineer told me that the stem can be very complimentary in combination with a suspension fork, and suggested giving it a try.

Redshift salespeople will do a lot so you buy their products* A good service, I do agree.
Think this way: The suspension fork will work if there are two solid anchors at the either side: the stem and the wheel hub. If you put a flexible anchor at the handlebar side, the shock fork will stop working as designed.
----------
*) A Redshift engineer was trying to convince me the 120 mm stem would provide the most potent dampening action of the ShockStop. What he failed to mention was the fact the stem length was related to one of the most important bike geometry parameter: the Reach. You cannot play with the Reach as you please, though... Unless you perfectly know what you are doing.

 

[nutdriver]

If anyone complains on wrist aches/numbness with flat handlebars, it is hard to beat SQlab Innerbarends. The 411s can be installed together with any existing grips. The 410/402 must be purchased together with the 710 SQlab grips (for the flat bars).

Innerbarends are the closest approximation of the drop bar "hoods". They allow you keep the arms and elbows pretty close to your body. You do not hold onto IBEs; you rest the part of your hand between the index finger and thumb on IBEs, while the hand rests on the handlebar grip, and fingers delicately rest on the brake lever. Since I have installed IBEs on my two e-bikes, no numb hands anymore. The access to brake levers is instant, which is another bonus.

There are two things about IBEs you should be aware of:

• Installing the IBEs requires removing or loosening all components from the bars prior to IBEs setup; finding the correct angle for the Innerbarends can be frustrating;
• IBEs take a lot of space from the bars.

View attachment 160407
One of the best thing to improve the ride comfort (410/402 + 710). The consequence was the need to increase the Preload on the Redshift ShockStop stem (two elastomer pieces), as the setup brought my Vado SL closer to the road/gravel bike.

I use the 411s together with Ergon GP2 grips on the other e-bike. I spend at least 90% of the ride time in the Innerbarends.

I found this discussion today and found it interesting. After reading Stefan Mike's post and looking at his pictures, I was curious if the SQLab 710 grips are compatible with Bar End mirrors such as Mirrycle units. From this picture, it sure looks like they would be. If not Mirrycle mirrors what mirror can be used with these grips?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I found this discussion today and found it interesting. After reading Stefan Mike's post and looking at his pictures, I was curious if the SQLab 710 grips are compatible with Bar End mirrors such as Mirrycle units. From this picture, it sure looks like they would be. If not Mirrycle mirrors what mirror can be used with these grips?

I'm afraid you need to cut the grip outer edge to install a Mirrycle. I did it without any regret, and it does not look badly at all afterwards.