Dispelling some myths about motor wattage, and ratings

[Deleted member 4210]

This is one of the better articles I have seen, that is also actually accurate, regarding motor ratings and the usage of the 'watt' nomenclature that ebike makers use to name the motor 'size' that is on an ebike they make.

http://www.ebikeschool.com/myth-ebike-wattage/

I won't recap the article, but here are highlights that are what I'd consider relevant to your ebike search:

The watt rating an ebike OEM uses for a motor, doesn't really tell you what motor is actually being used. For example, two manufacturers could call their motors "750 watt" motors, and one could supply whats known as a 350 watt motor (continuously rated), and the other supply an actual 750 watt motor, that has a slightly higher 'peak rating'. Are they the same motor ? Nope. But both could be supplied the same max amperes and voltage, and be able to deliver 750 watts, decided by the controller and how they program it. How can you know ? Well other than getting the motor and opening it up (which Kyle at Bolton Bikes has done for you, on a Rad Power 750 watt motor - youtube videos out there), and then knowing what controller is on the bike, and how its internally rated, and programmed, you can't possibly know without deeper research. You can "sort of" verify capability and relevant power by knowing the torque rating. (the OEMS can play games there too) Best way other than knowing for sure the technical details, is to plain and simple ride them side by side, and try them both on the same hills, etc.

The article does indirectly explain, in part (not the entire reason) why you see so many motors (mostly mid drives) that come out of Europe, being rated only at 250 watts. (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, etc.).

Don't ask me why these marketing games are played. Hundreds of reasons can be given, and you all can figure them out or even make up your own. Here in the good ole USofA, it's often simply referred to as 'marketing.' Its no longer a matter of 'ethics or morality' in this country, and maybe there never was any question of such for any product even a hundred years ago. It's just 'it is what it is.'

Does any of this help you make a better or more informed decision on buying an e-bike ? Maybe, maybe not. Just don't be shocked if you find it confusing. If you are lucky, maybe you can find a shop locally who will help make it a little more transparent. Or just roll the dice, buy the cheapest one you can stomach on line, and don't worry about it.

 

[Ken M]

Some of "lies" originate from Europe because even the mid drive companies know the 250W EU limit isn't compelling unless you are a 10 year old kid on his first ebike. Bosch goes around trying to draw attention to non-compliant products in Europe and the US and they are well aware they are "marketing / lying" about their own products. The world needs the compelling human scale transportation solution that the ebike has the potential to be so let's hope that at some point the marketing people and bureaucrats step aside and let some technical people make the decisions on what an ebike should be and should do and still be the equivalent of a traditional bike.

Probably the only reason why it's all working is that the bureaucrats that drafted the regulations (the 3 Class system sweeping the US is a perfect example) are not technically knowledgeable enough to understand what they are doing (nor do they car to be because that would require real effort and they need to be collecting money for elections).

Insurance company executives are salivating because they want every bike that goes over 20mph in the US to be classified as a moped so they can generate more expensive policies even though the underwriters know that every time some gets out of their car to ride an ebike their actually liability is lower...they don't care about facts when more reload options and bonus can be had.

 

[Ebiker01]

Those insurance companies greed might be too big and shut off the whole ebike momentum...
And agreed Bosch is such a deceiving company.
Now they have what is called the “ anti delimiter” software to completly lock the ebike if it has been delimited. Really ?? I pay and i can delimit it if i feel like or even perform repairs on it ?.
Or will that be banned to ?

Warning- You are now being locked out of using your ebike for performing an unauthorized seatpost/stem , etc. repair/ change.
Please contact your nearest Bosch authorized dealer for unlock. Charges may apply.

 

[Ken M]

I think when bean counters and marketing people have too much say at any corporation all logic gets sucked out of decisions. They forget about facts and specs and think of Kardashian-like deceptions. It's just strange that the EU regulations state 250W limit and yet the big mid drive motor players like Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, and Brose all have "peak wattage" above that limit but if a hub drive motor tries to compete with them on a level playing field in the EU they attack if they peak above 250W.

I understand modern society needs regulations and even insurance but lets just hope that when all the smoke clears and the ebike market matures that they are allowed to be viable forms of human scale transportation without tons of fees and regulations rendering them meritless.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

For all of the commentary about how onerous the EU regulations are with respect to e-bike power ratings, more e-bikes are sold in the EU than the states and e-bikes represent a higher percentage of bicycle sales in the EU (nearly half in the Netherlands, and a majority if you don't count bicycles for children) are e-bikes than in the United States.

So it is hard for me to see how anyone can argue that the EU regulations are significantly impeding the adoption of e-bikes.

 

[Ken M]

For all of the commentary about how onerous the EU regulations are with respect to e-bike power ratings, more e-bikes are sold in the EU than the states and e-bikes represent a higher percentage of bicycle sales in the EU (nearly half in the Netherlands, and a majority if you don't count bicycles for children) are e-bikes than in the United States.

So it is hard for me to see how anyone can argue that the EU regulations are significantly impeding the adoption of e-bikes.

Here's my take on why it's a bit different here. Europe is more densely packed in the urban areas and the density of bikers actually slows the ebike riders so they would not benefit much from higher power. Cruising along at 25kph is also OK if you only commute say 10km or less to work which is likely much more common there than here.

In the US there are pretty much wide open bike paths and lanes in some cities and riders may have up to a 20 mile commute to work (I do for example). If I can average say 25mph instead of the EU frantic pace of 15mph I can save a lot of time on my commute and time is something that just seems to be more of a concern here (maybe our dog-eat-dog idea of capitalism makes us think like this and Europe is a bit more relaxed when it comes to getting to work as fast as possible).

Most of the people you see saying that 250W and 20mph assist speed cut offs are OK are essentially just recreational or leisure riders (some retired so they have all day to just poke around the neigborhood). If I can save up to an hour a day on my ebike commute time I want to assist speed that enables that....it saves me money/time. I understand the mamby-pambies watching me pass them may not like it but they are free to walk is the way I see it (I'm not implying I ever think riding recklessly is OK).

 

[Flash Gordon]

Here's my take on why it's a bit different here. Europe is more densely packed in the urban areas and the density of bikers actually slows the ebike riders so they would not benefit much from higher power. Cruising along at 25kph is also OK if you only commute say 10km or less to work which is likely much more common there than here.

In the US there are pretty much wide open bike paths and lanes in some cities and riders may have up to a 20 mile commute to work (I do for example). If I can average say 25mph instead of the EU frantic pace of 15mph I can save a lot of time on my commute and time is something that just seems to be more of a concern here (maybe our dog-eat-dog idea of capitalism makes us think like this and Europe is a bit more relaxed when it comes to getting to work as fast as possible).

Most of the people you see saying that 250W and 20mph assist speed cut offs are OK are essentially just recreational or leisure riders (some retired so they have all day to just poke around the neigborhood). If I can save up to an hour a day on my ebike commute time I want to assist speed that enables that....it saves me money/time. I understand the mamby-pambies watching me pass them may not like it but they are free to walk is the way I see it (I'm not implying I ever think riding recklessly is OK).

OK, I'll say it. Call me a mamby-pamby but I think it is pretty dangerous for someone to be passing a jogger, walker, someone walking a stroller or even another bike rider when they are going whizzing by, within a few feet at 25 mph. I read many in this forum and other forums who want much more speed than what even class 3 would permit. I'm fine with all that, but to do so on a "bike paths" used by the other folks is, IMHO, reckless and rude. If you want to juice up your bikes, why not go out in the street where speed is the order of the day. Or maybe get a real motororized vehicle. It is this kind of mentality that will result in ALL e-bikes being banned from "bike paths."

 

[Ken M]

OK, I'll say it. Call me a mamby-pamby but I think it is pretty dangerous for someone to be passing a jogger, walker, someone walking a stroller or even another bike rider when they are going whizzing by, within a few feet at 25 mph. I read many in this forum and other forums who want much more speed than what even class 3 would permit. I'm fine with all that, but to do so on a "bike paths" used by the other folks is, IMHO, reckless and rude. If you want to juice up your bikes, why not go out in the street where speed is the order of the day. Or maybe get a real motororized vehicle. It is this kind of mentality that will result in ALL e-bikes being banned from "bike paths."

I'm in favor of speed limits on mixed use path where there are joggers, strollers, etc. but not for limiting the assist speed of all ebikes to 20mph or even 28mph (the Class 3 label is just an opening for other fees to be passed on those ebikes). Why I'm in favor of an ebike with the capability to assist to say as high as 35/36mph is to make them more safe on road side bike lanes where this reduces the speed delta of the cars and bikes on that road.

What you need to keep in mind is that accomplish road riders can sustain a speed of 30-35mph for at least a few minutes so I'm advocating that bike speed will really increase (the average speeds will increase because gravity is not as much of a killer to ebikes but that's a good thing)..