Crazy Stupid Commute

ebubar

ebubar

Member
Have only seen shades of what I'm wondering covered in here. I currently commute 30-36 miles roundtrip on my adventure bike (Jamis Renegade). I have been doing this 5 days a week for the past 3 years. With starts and stops and a couple decent hills it takes me between an hour 15 and an hour 45 minutes each way. Thus i'm used to 3+ hours in the saddle every day and haven't tired of it for many years. According to Strava, I don't kill myself on my rides and put out around an average of 120 - 130 watts on most rides. Due to her job and the expenses of housing in the area (DC Metro area) I may end up with a 54 mile roundtrip commute. This is a bit far to do daily on my adventure bike. I'm considering the plausibility of getting an ebike to ride the full distance at least a few days a week. I can park the bike in my office and charge in the mornings. I'd hope to average around 20 mph over the 26-27 miles each way so that I'm spending roughly the same time on the bike as I currently am. Rough back of the envelope calculations make me think I can get it done with a Class 3 bike to use a low pedal assist setting to give me some increased acceleration from stops and maintain higher speed on flats and a higher setting to get me up hills faster. I'd endeavor to not run the battery to empty each way, and instead charge at work and in the evenings. Figuring roughly 2 years of good battery performance from daily-ish commuting during the academic year (physics prof so not a strict schedule in the summers).

Looking at 250 Watt, middrive and 500-ish Wh.

1) Am I crazy? Most topics like this that I've seen have assumed the time in the saddle would be impossible. I'm already putting in that time so I know its not too much saddle time, though i'm not used to that time at such speeds.

2) I've got my eye on the Raleigh Redux iE Step Over (from a local shop that specializes in ebikes). Tried that one, a Specialized Vado (nice, but the cruiser-ish positioning doesn't seem good for the distance i'm planning) and another that I don't recall (it was a weaker midrive model with a lower torque motor). Those were the only models in my $3k-ish price range that the shop recommended. They have some that were $5k+ (nope) and some Gazelle bikes (which were limited to Class 2 - so they didn't recommend those).

3) I haven't cared for suspension forks, but are they really nice to have at sustained higher ebike speeds?

Just seeking thoughts from the wider ebike community to confirm my research thus far is sound.

FYI - 5'8", 160 lbs. Thanks in advance for any tips!
 
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No idea of the number of stops you'll have to make on that 27 mile trip each way, but averaging 20mph is really going to take some serious energy. I'd estimate you'll have to stay around 25mph and above for a fair percentage of it. That is not easy! 22-23, not so bad, 25 gets worse, and 27-28 is difficult to hold for 5 miles or more at a time. It becomes a factor of aerodynamics at that speed. Then you need the brakes to stop you from that speed. Hydraulics would be a necessity. 27 miles at those speeds is going to wipe out most packs, so you'll be doing nearly a full charge, twice a day. If you get 1000 full charges out of a pack, that's 500 days for you. So a stretch to get 2 years from a $1,000 pack. Can't forget the sweat factor that many commuters say is the reason they shop for an ebike. They seem to abhor the idea of sweating. You'll be doing plenty of that holding those high speeds. You'll get plenty of support for the idea, but in my mind that speed and distance does make sense on an ebike.
 
rich c said:
No idea of the number of stops you'll have to make on that 27 mile trip each way, but averaging 20mph is really going to take some serious energy. I'd estimate you'll have to stay around 25mph and above for a fair percentage of it. That is not easy! 22-23, not so bad, 25 gets worse, and 27-28 is difficult to hold for 5 miles or more at a time. It becomes a factor of aerodynamics at that speed. Then you need the brakes to stop you from that speed. Hydraulics would be a necessity. 27 miles at those speeds is going to wipe out most packs, so you'll be doing nearly a full charge, twice a day. If you get 1000 full charges out of a pack, that's 500 days for you. So a stretch to get 2 years from a $1,000 pack. Can't forget the sweat factor that many commuters say is the reason they shop for an ebike. They seem to abhor the idea of sweating. You'll be doing plenty of that holding those high speeds. You'll get plenty of support for the idea, but in my mind that speed and distance does make sense on an ebike.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the perspective! I don't mind sweating at all. I've got showers here. Wanted to get some different views since, as you mentioned, i'm not the typical ebike buyer that wants to avoid sweat and make the commute a bit easier. I'm looking to maintain the current commute effort and just use the e-assist to make it possible to go further! It may just be more practical to drive partway and then commute the rest by bike.
 
What you want is definitely not normal, but not too hard to do.

Whether or not you need suspension depends on the road conditions where you are. Loss of control rather than comfort is the real factor. Disk breaks virtually mandatory much over 20mph, hydraulic or not is an option.

You will need to address your gearing. Few bikes, and no e-bikes I know of, are geared for effective pedaling at those speeds. Patterson cranks or a 5-speed rear hub with a very small drive gear are possible options.

A mid-drive is an option, but if you can already handle the hills you do not really need one, they have reliability and maintenance issues.

Something like a 328 RPM Q100, or Q128, possibly up-volted to 48V from 36V for an effective RPM over 400, in a 29" or 700C rim, will do what you want but you MUST pedal significantly most of the time and exclusively or nearly so at take-off.

Pair that with a 36V, 20 amp battery, or 48V of similar amperage, and a Satiator transportable charger or an extra standard charger to leave at work. Higher voltage will be closer to your max speed but increased wind resistance becomes a significant power drain at 25-28 or so.

You need a quality battery and not an el-cheapo. The motor is cheap and shipping is huge, two motors cost not much more than one, especially if you build your own wheel or have it built.

Put this on a quality bike that fits you well.
 
So I can offer you a bit of perspective. My commute is 30 miles each way. I historically did this on my road bike, but fighting headwinds on the way home alot had me taking the train far more than I wanted. I began researching ebikes late last year, I quickly zeroed in on the Juiced CrossCurrent S as being a great value for high speed, long distance commuting. I continued researching for a good while, and flip flopped between the idea of building a bike, or buying a pre-built. I obviously finally settled on the CCS with the 52V/ 21Ah battery option. I received my bike May 9th, and have put over 1000 miles on it since.

Here are some things I would place priority on in your search:
1) Battery, battery, battery!
Any bike with a 500 Wh battery or less should be crossed off your list. On my commute I average ~ 500 Wh each way; high use days fighting headwinds have had my use over 600Wh. I only charge my battery to 80% to promote longevity of the pack, and have yet to drop it below 30%. Any ebike will experience a drop in performance as the voltage in the pack drops. I can notice this as well, but its not dramatic as my pack voltage remains relatively high. Dropping batteries below 20% negatively affects longevity as well.
Plan on a minimum of 20 Wh / mile, more if you want to be travelling over 30 mph. Higher speeds require exponentially more power due to the poor aerodynamics of the riding position.
2) Bikes designed as class 3, high speed commuters should be your focus. These bikes tend to have a more forward seating position improving aerodynamics some; they also tend to have better brakes; and tires that are bigger to absorb high speed bumps, etc.
3) Mid-drives are less advantageous as high speed commuters. The basic physics of the design dictate that the motor cannot apply full motor torque to the rear wheel when you are using the higher gears in your cassette (smaller cogs). The Bosch Performance Speed motor is the best mid-drive in this regard as it uses an internal gearing to allow for a small front charinring.
Hub drives do not experience this loss in torque at high speeds and are in fact at their most efficient when operating at high motor speeds. Many individual builders actually use direct drive hubs for their high speed builds, as it is where they become their best. However, a geared hub motor with a high speed winding is a great option in this regard as well.
4) Go test ride several bikes if you can. The Trek SuperCommuter 8S is a great bike that I really enjoyed riding. If it had a bigger battery and lower price, I'd have been happy to own it. You will find out quickly, just because a bike says Class 3, doesn't mean you can maintain or even attain 28 mph on level ground. The Magnum Metro+ is a great example. On paper it looks very similar to my Juiced CCS. The ride performance is like a family sedan versus a Corvette.

Good luck in your search.
 
I'm doing a 36 mile round trip on a Bulls Lacuba e45 speed pedelec. I only have about 2.5 miles of open road before I have to drop my speed and mix with congested traffic. With a tail wind I can average 18mph and use 50-60% of my 650 wh battery. If I have a headwind I use even more battery. Based on your new commute I'd think you'd need a 1000 wh battery, I've heard that it's easier to get up to the magical 28mph with a rear hub motor with my mid drive 23-24 is the sweet spot after that you have to really work.
 
That kind of commute is perfectly doable on an E-bike and it is only sustainable on an E-bike for any long duration.
I used to commute from DC suburbs to Annapolis (60 mile round trip) and it was challenging but very satisfying.

would be a good option if you have good shop to help you with maintenance and warranty stuff.

With an extra charger at work, it should not be a problem. With the savings over 2 years, the battery+bike would have paid for itself by then.
 
rich c said:
estimate you'll have to stay around 25mph and above for a fair percentage of it. That is not easy! 22-23, not so bad, 25 gets worse, and 27-28 is difficult to hold for 5 miles or more at a time
Click to expand...
At lower levels of assist, this has been true for me. You mentioned wanting to use the lower levels, which I mostly do, so I thought I'd mention it.

If I want to average >20mph, I kick it up to the 3rd or 4th level. I almost never use the 5th level (highest level) except in particular circumstances; not for riding long distances in any case. When using 3 or 4, it is not that much work to maintain higher speed for me, and it sounds like you're already in pretty good shape (which I am not -- COPD for one thing.)

If you're going to charge at work, then you won't have to worry about range if you have sufficient battery. I agree with @Chris Hammond entirely on this point. To put it slightly differently than he did, look for a bike with a 48 volt system and a battery with upwards of 13 amp-hours. HIgher would be better, not just for range, but you will get zippier performance for more of that range.
 
ebubar said:
Have only seen shades of what I'm wondering covered in here. I currently commute 30-36 miles roundtrip on my adventure bike (Jamis Renegade). I have been doing this 5 days a week for the past 3 years. With starts and stops and a couple decent hills it takes me between an hour 15 and an hour 45 minutes each way. Thus i'm used to 3+ hours in the saddle every day and haven't tired of it for many years. According to Strava, I don't kill myself on my rides and put out around an average of 120 - 130 watts on most rides. Due to her job and the expenses of housing in the area (DC Metro area) I may end up with a 54 mile roundtrip commute. This is a bit far to do daily on my adventure bike. I'm considering the plausibility of getting an ebike to ride the full distance at least a few days a week. I can park the bike in my office and charge in the mornings. I'd hope to average around 20 mph over the 26-27 miles each way so that I'm spending roughly the same time on the bike as I currently am. Rough back of the envelope calculations make me think I can get it done with a Class 3 bike to use a low pedal assist setting to give me some increased acceleration from stops and maintain higher speed on flats and a higher setting to get me up hills faster. I'd endeavor to not run the battery to empty each way, and instead charge at work and in the evenings. Figuring roughly 2 years of good battery performance from daily-ish commuting during the academic year (physics prof so not a strict schedule in the summers).

Looking at 250 Watt, middrive and 500-ish Wh.

1) Am I crazy? Most topics like this that I've seen have assumed the time in the saddle would be impossible. I'm already putting in that time so I know its not too much saddle time, though i'm not used to that time at such speeds.

2) I've got my eye on the Raleigh Redux iE Step Over (from a local shop that specializes in ebikes). Tried that one, a Specialized Vado (nice, but the cruiser-ish positioning doesn't seem good for the distance i'm planning) and another that I don't recall (it was a weaker midrive model with a lower torque motor). Those were the only models in my $3k-ish price range that the shop recommended. They have some that were $5k+ (nope) and some Gazelle bikes (which were limited to Class 2 - so they didn't recommend those).

3) I haven't cared for suspension forks, but are they really nice to have at sustained higher ebike speeds?

Just seeking thoughts from the wider ebike community to confirm my research thus far is sound.

FYI - 5'8", 160 lbs. Thanks in advance for any tips!
Click to expand...

That is some commute dude!

I would make sure that your bike route would be legal for an Ebike, and specifically what class eBike

You can average 19-20 mph if there isn't any traffic and don't have stop lights.

And I don't know if you want a new bike or not, but have you considered an ebike kit? You could get away with a very light rear geared hub motor, and put a large battery on it... All for less than $1500 + your bike

If you do want a off the shelf electric bike, the STromer is a perfect commuter bike... Comfortable, Reliable fast and overall excellent quality. It is heavy and rear hub motor. You can buy leftover models cheap.
 
Thanks all for the suggestions. The various advice i've received have convinced me to try hub drives in addition to mid-drives that the two shops I've visited recommended. I tested a Stromer ST-2 today. That thing was crazy fast and easy to ride. An the battery is a beast. Alas, WAY out of my price range. The ST-1X looks similar, but still about $2K more than i'd like to spend. The ST-1 Platinum is in the right price tier though. May try that one out.
 
ebubar said:
Thanks all for the suggestions. The various advice i've received have convinced me to try hub drives in addition to mid-drives that the two shops I've visited recommended. I tested a Stromer ST-2 today. That thing was crazy fast and easy to ride. An the battery is a beast. Alas, WAY out of my price range. The ST-1X looks similar, but still about $2K more than i'd like to spend. The ST-1 Platinum is in the right price tier though. May try that one out.
Click to expand...

Stromer is a nice premium brand at a price. You can look at the CCS with the large battery option as Chris Hammond did. You might also be interested on the Smartmotion Pacer with the 17.5 ah battery (840 wh). You have to bring your charger to work to preserve the life of your battery. On the Smartmotion, you can switch, on the fly, between torque sensing and simple cadence sensing, plus you have the throttle for a quick and safe crossing at the intersections.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
http://smartmotionbikesusa.com/index.php/bikes/sport-models/smartmotion-pacer



When it comes to city streets stop and go, nothing beats the hub drives, esp if you have the throttle. You can also shift effortlessly and quickly up and down the gears, on the hub drive, without losing momentum. You will see what I mean if you can compare mid and hub drive back to back going from a level ground up a hill that requires you to eventually down shift 2-3 times. By the time you completed the series of downshifts your still rolling fast on the hub drive, the mid drive will be rolling slower by then.

I've been to 2 mid drives and 3 hub drives. Recently, my knees start to hurt and realized that cadence sensing only, is more knee friendly than the torque sensing. Now I'm back with simple cadence sensing and I regained my joy in riding bicycles again!
 
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My friend has local 350w version and has no problem doing 20-25mph on flat. But it does struggle on steep hills. The 500w USA version should be better.
You will need a decent suspension searpost eg suntour NCX or thudbuster.
 
Called around to some shops and found a place to test a Stromer ST2S. They're trying to clear stock, so have priced it at $6599. I had my max price at $5K (and hoping for more like $2-3K - thus the Raleigh Redux iE), but 30% off an ST2S is an attractive price. The roughly 1000 Wh battery would easily handle my 28 miles in, recharge at work, then 28 miles home. Could cruise at higher pedal assist speeds too without fear of battery drain (especially in winter). Might try to further bargain to get a rack thrown in as well as an upgrade to the Omni system. I saw somewhere that buying an ST2S at this time of year makes one eligible for a free or reduced upgrade?
 
I commute closer to 16 miles a day, much less than you, but the concept is the same. I have a Magnum Metro Plus and love it. It has a 500 watt hub motor and a 643 wh 48 volt battery. I average 19-20 mph on assist 3 of 6. I started out on assist 4 but have quickly been getting in shape and expect I might be down to assist level 2 before too long. The quality on this bike seems really good for the price to me. The motor is German, The derailer is not top line but not bottom of the heap either. It shifts really smooth. It has hydraulic brakes which I feel really confident in at 20 mph.

So here is my crazy idea if I were in your shoes. I would spend the $2,000 for the same bike and spend another $1,200 for two additional batteries. Then you just rotate the batteries always having a fresh one at work and at home. You could also do it with two batteries as long as you don't forget to charge at work or at home. A bike and two additional batteries and you are only at $3,200 and can ride with no worries.

The negatives are that I find it a lot of work to sustain speed once you get to 21-22. 19 is easy and not very taxing unless you want it to be. This seems to be more about wind resistance than any limits on the motor. The Metro Plus is a bit more upright then some commuter bikes, which works well because I have a bad wrist, but it has a quick release on the handle bars so can quickly be moved forward/back and rotated up or down.

I agree with other comments on the advantage of the hub motor system. I tried out both hub and mid-drive. The ability to launch with the throttle from stops is really helpful at a couple of the intersections along my route. I'm sure you will find a great solution, happy commuting!
 
So I rode my entire route on my regular commuter (a Jamis Renegade). For those interested, here's the route/ride - https://www.strava.com/activities/1661467105
1 hour 49 minutes from start to finish. About 2 hours and 5 minutes when I factor in stops. Need to do some calculations and see
the plausibility of getting this time down by 30-45 minutes by switching to an ebike. If any of the experts on here have experience/insight on their own experiences with bringing down commute times by going electric i'm all ears. Planning to take a Brooks saddle in to put on the Stromer ST2S for an extended test ride where I tweak the torque sensor to get a better idea of the power sometime soon. Cheers and enjoying reading all this and learning all about ebikes!
 
So you know about my 30 mile commute. I will link a strava ride from April on my road bike: https://www.strava.com/activities/1489909223
And here is the same ride today on my CCS: https://www.strava.com/activities/1664477964.
This is a pretty fair representation of the time savings for me, I figure I am saving 30-40 minutes each way. This time savings goes up when there is a headwind as it is far easier to maintain high speeds with an ebike as opposed to a road bike.
Traffic stops really do cut into your average speed, so that may be a factor in your ability to save time.
On my commute the northern 10 miles are far slower than the rest; this is the urban city portion; the rest is suburban. I have seen my average speed > 27mph on my bike computer for the first 20 miles on my way in to work, and end up with an average of ~24 mph by the time I get there.
My recommendation is to drive the exact same route you plan to ride and calculate your average speed. That should give you some perspective about just how big of an impact the stops due to traffic lights may have. One of the other big factors is the ability to ride past stopped traffic at lights on a bike. On my ride home in my suburban segment; the road I ride has a bike lane adjoining regular traffic and speed limits range from 40-45 for ~ 10 miles. I am typically faster than car traffic due to rush hour causing lines of traffic at every signal. I see cars pass me, and I pass them, back and forth for a few signals, until I generally leave them behind where a few lights have very long lines.
If you look at the segment splits on the second strava ride from today, you can see the difference in the first ~ 10 or so splits average speeds vs. the rest.
 
Thanks again for all help. I've preordered a CCS with the 48 V 19 Ah battery, with an inquiry to Juiced about upgrading to the 52 V battery, as it wasn't an option in the online order form. Also planning to go back and test ride the Stromer ST2S locally. It really didn't wow me on the test ride (especially not for being a $10k bike marked down to 6.5k) but I'm wondering if the torque sensor may have been off. When I put down some force and shifted into the tougher gears, the motor would kick in so I'm thinking I can go into the settings and adjust the torque sensor to be more reactive to get the bike to act like reviews seem to suggest it should. Will keep you all updated on how things go!
 
Today is my first attempt at a 60mile round trip commute. I wouldn't even attempt it with a regular bike, I'm not very fit. I got an ebike a week ago and this is the first long ride.

It's limited to 15mph assisted as I'm in England, and I might get tired of such a slow speed eventually but it seemed ok this morning.

I'm looking forward to my return journey, the only thing I didn't like was getting up at 3am this morning, but at least the weather is nice.
 
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