Can the 2022 Vado 5.0's be derestricted?
- Thread starter Gee_Whiz
- Start date
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
a warranty?
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
at 27 or so
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Try this site: https://planet3.bike/
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
It makes no sense to derestrict a Class 3 e-bike IMHO. The air drag above 25 mph makes it hard to ride any faster unless it is a tailwind or downhill ride. Riding at the top speed range is also heavy on the battery consumption and on the drivetrain, both being costly in a longer term (battery and drivetrain degradation). I own and ride a 45 km/h Vado and never thought I would like to derestrict it.
Derestricting 2020 Mastermind e-bikes electronically appears difficult because of the data encryption in the system. Mechanically? Did Alex of PLANET3.BIKE confirm he could handle new Vados? Derestricting the new Vado mechanically will produce crap on the display, undermining all benefits the new Mastermind can offer.
Derestricting 2020 Mastermind e-bikes electronically appears difficult because of the data encryption in the system. Mechanically? Did Alex of PLANET3.BIKE confirm he could handle new Vados? Derestricting the new Vado mechanically will produce crap on the display, undermining all benefits the new Mastermind can offer.
Gee_Whiz
Active Member
Thank you for the fantastic insights. This makes alot of sense
Nxkharra
Well-Known Member
fully agree with @Stefan Mikes I have US Vado 5 with 28m/h speed limit. I rarely go over 20m/h.
The occasional time when I ride with my biker son I exceed the 20m/h and it is not comfortable.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
since most e bikes are not aro I had to put out at least 200 watts to keep going around 27
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Here's the Mastermind TCD-w and its benefits:
Alex @ PLANET3.bike
New Member
*One eternity lateeerr* @Stefan Mikes - sorry for the late reply, but I didn't get tagged in this thread since I never replied here and just found it via a Google search so I'm replying for posterity (in the future, if you'd like my thoughts on something just @ me here and then I get an email notification. I'm more than happy to reply even if it's not regarding my product).
Point 1: I guess it's down to the user. I've had plenty of folks from the US order a PLANET3 for their 45 km/h limited Vado 5/6 and I know I get my Class 1 Vado up to 53-55 km/h on the flat regularly and I'd never want to feel the speed limit on it. However, I am inclined to agree - if one is not in a huge rush somewhere, there's almost zero need to derestrict a Class 3 Vado. If the regular Vado was limited to 35 km/h, there'd be a whole lot less of them needing derestriction too.
Point 2: It's again - down to the user. I preferred Specialized emtbs originally because they didn't have a screen, just a LED display for battery status and mode of assistance. Road going bikes such as Vado and Como had a speed display well before the MasterMind ever came out (with TCD and such), but again - the question is: does the speed limit bother you more than the inaccurate display of speed/distance? If the answer is yes, then derestrict it. If you want both, there are products that solve that problem, too.
Which brings us to a segue about the new PLANET3-E chip!
Now, if we can quickly get over the potential hypocrisy of the "mechanical derestriction guy is now making chips", I can try to explain why and how..
Basically, at one point in 2021 there was a faulty S-Works Levo Gen2 that had 17 errors when first turned on (without ever being derestricted or ridden). One of the errors was regarding "Not allowed gear ratios on the bike" which indicated to me that Specialized was working on a feature that Shimano and Bosch have had for a long time - programmed gear ratios for the front chainring and cassette. This gives them an option of detecting mechanical derestriction devices when you're moving very slowly because only then will you find yourself outside the allowed cadence vs. speed map.A scenario is simple: imagine you’re pedaling uphill and moving rather slowly (say 6 km/h) in first gear, if you have a PLANET3 fitted the bike would think you’re moving at 2 km/h at the same cadence and that’s simply too far outside the range of “normal expected” speed for that cadence. If you'd like to read more on this and how the PLANET3-E came about, I wrote a blog post in Oct 2024 that's "quite extensive". You can just scroll down to section "2. Electronic derestriction devices" - just above that one is the aforementioned error that initiated my whole process.
Now, you can see why in order to be "futureproof" and still have a decent bump in speed - methods and tactics needed to change/evolve. Some months later I had the first prototype that was functional and since then it was being continuously developed and delayed but recently it's been released (although quietly) to the public because the 70+ users in beta were all going strong and the supporting app has been published to both the Google Play store and the Apple's App store.
Finally, we can get back to your last point about derestricting the Vado/Como with the Mastermind TCU via a PLANET3-E chip that will solve all the problems that were faced by the mechanical PLANET3 version. First things first - there's no data encryption in Specialized/Brose ecosystem just as there's no encryption anywhere else in the e-bike drivetrain world (for now). All of the motors and manufacturers use the simple CAN protocol just as it is used in the car industry. Encrypting CAN is a bad idea for several reasons but mainly it's the fact that encryption adds too much data to the standard CAN message which is limited to 8 bytes of data per frame and it slows everything down too much because encryption and decryption add latency and you're trying to use CAN protocol for real-time control systems in the e-bike motor. All of the current chips on the market (including PLANET3-E), simply listen to CAN messages and then interrupt that traffic and send modified messages regarding speed to the motor. Short version: once you reach ~80% of the speed limit the chip starts lying to the motor that you're still doing ~20% below the speed limit while at the same time sending accurate speed information to the display. This is possible because you plug the chip in between the speed sensor, the motor and the display. You can read more about what happens and how in the aforementioned blog post, but the conclusion is: you can now have an accurate display of speed and distance on any Vado/Como/Tero/Levo/Kenevo with the Specialized/Brose drivetrain. I'm also working on solving the connectors for the SL e-bikes which use the Specialized/Mahle motor.
Another problem that the PLANET3-E solves and the mechanical PLANET3 couldn't is the rear hub and brake rotor compatibility. On IGH versions of the Vado/Como that feature Enviolo hubs, fitting a mechanical PLANET3 was not possible because the rear hub features incompatible geometry on the braking side. Shimano Nexus hubs are OK and we have a version for those, but Enviolo was always a no-go. There are plenty of hubs on the market that are incompatible with the mechanical PLANET3 system because of the end cap profile geometry or their usage of bearing preload collars with grub screws which just get in the way of fitting the planetary gearset. Also, there were users who had multiple wheelsets for their e-bikes for commuting and other styles of riding who, if they wanted to keep derestriction, had to buy several PLANET3 units for their wheelsets. With the chip version they just need to have a stationary magnet on each rear wheel.
However, the main advantage of the PLANET3-E is the fact that it can be updated via Bluetooth directly from the accompanying smartphone application. No other product on the market offers this at the same level. Speedbox has an option to update some of their recent chips but you have to send them in at your expense and they'll charge you 60 EUR for an update. I guess it's better than having to shell out 300 EUR for a new one, but you know what's even better? Just pressing a button and watching it happen before your eyes.
Also, my main concern when developing a product is to protect the user's motor warranty. Suffice to say, the PLANET3-E is the smartest way to go about electronically derestricting an e-bike. I've data logged all of the competitor's products and some of them do things so unintelligently that it amazes me that people don't have more problems than they currently do. PLANET3-E is the least detectable derestriction product on the market. I won't use the word "undetectable" or "impossible to detect", but with the current state of affairs and hardware fitted to e-bikes - it actually is undetectable. The manufacturers in the future will probably start implementing GPS at the TCU level, barometers/altimeters, inclination sensors and accelerometers, and at that point it's just going to mean having to re-develop things to combat these advancements, but for now - we're still good.
If anyone has any questions, fire away!
Base
Bike nerd
- Region
- Europe
- City
- in the exact center of the Netherlands
Currently there already a few TCU's with GPS etc in it. And if you are running the BES3 system with the GPS unit it it can find any trickery on the speed sensor.
Alex @ PLANET3.bike
New Member
Yep, but most of the time these features depend on the user allowing their usage through the accompanying app such as eBike Flow from Bosch. So long as you're not using the app and recording the ride, derestriction is fine for Bosch - albeit they user another trick which is to see how often you run into the speed limit and continue pedaling without power. If this condition is never satisfied, they will throw you a limp mode error because in their book "it's impossible". PLANET3-E takes this into account and will take Bosch drivetrains to the regular speed limit for a few miliseconds every so often that this condition gets satisfied. Other thing you can do is set your user adjustable speed limit to something you're going to hit at least a couple of times a month.
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