brinco Bultaco or M1 Sporttechnik Spitzing r- Pedelec

[Mike leroy]

umm. I think you should test ride what you are interested in and not believe what I say it is all subjective to personal experience. Case in point I don't believe in suspension in bicycles. lol. I'd say that is not a mainstream opinion. If people took my advice there would be many unhappy riders with long faces.

ok. A folding bike is the best solution I have come across. Also, much less expensive. I just drive the half mile past the steep part. I anticipated taking the bus for emergencies.

 

[Mike leroy]

ok. A folding bike is the best solution I have come across. Also, much less expensive. I just drive the half mile past the steep part. I anticipated taking the bus for emergencies.

Would this folding bike work for you? I sent an email, asking them for a price with a motor.

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

Well I can tell you that a folding bike is isn't even remotely close to answering any of my questions. That's okay people. I'm sure we will get back on topic eventually.

 

[Brambor]

oops sorry

 

[Brambor]

I would definitely choose the Spitzing. What a machine!

 

[Mike leroy]

Well I can tell you that a folding bike is isn't even remotely close to answering any of my questions. That's okay people. I'm sure we will get back on topic eventually.

Sorry. We can help. What exactly do you want to know that I have not already answered?

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

Well the Spitzing is nice and light in weight with the mid drive (the hub motors can be risky if you land with the drive wheel spinning with power on can shatter the gears in the motor but they are very quiet) but the Bultaco definitely has the power. A throttle could always be added to the Spitzing surely. Both claiming to have about the same distance potential (but we all know that just depends depends depends), don't let the price affect your bias.

So what else is there that you might be preference to? Just with these two in mind.

 

[Brambor]

Personally I have 0 interest in a throttle or on a heavier bike that looks like a motorcycle.

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

You think it's starting to look a bit motorcycle? It does a bit but if you took away the fenders it wouldn't as much yeah?

 

[Brambor]

nothing wrong with a motorcycle but when I commit to the fact that that's what I'm getting then a whole slew of better options would open up. At the same time the weight, looks and function of such vehicle will also take away options that you have with a 'bicycle'

 

[Mike leroy]

Are you OK with such a large Amount of travel and weight? Or have the specs changed? I think the tradeoff from 73 pounds in weight offsets the benefit from performance.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/19/bultaco-returns-new-offroad-electric-bike/

While the concept of an electric bicycle isn't new, the Brinco tries to bring something new to the table by latching onto Bultaco's old school, offroad DNA. Up front the bike has an inverted fork suspension with 7.9-inches of travel, and the rear monoshock offers 8.7 inches. Riders also should be able to stop on a dime too thanks to disc brakes at both ends. The whole thing is packaged onto an aluminum frame and weighs a total of about 73 pounds.

 

[Mike leroy]

You might also want to consider Optibike. Jim Turner was a national motocross champion. He graduated from Stanford in engineering. Jim worked in the USA auto industry.

I have a hard time with the price

http://optibike.com/our-bikes/mountain-off-road/

 

[Mike leroy]

Have you seen the BME Helio review? I like the 1kW version better, because it is still Class 1 street legal in Calif.

The price is a real value at $2900. I would rather have this bike on a car bike rack, than a folding bike. I really like the 52V / 19Amp electrical system! The stealth from all black camouflages the wires. Very thoughtful!

I sent them an email to understand if the 8Fun torque sensor is an option. My major reservation for waiting on the 8Fun, until this becomes standard.

• Power: 52v 750watt Mid-driven system
• Modes: Pedal Assist (1-3) & Direct drive throttle
• Range: 35+ Miles per charge (Pas 2)
• Top Speed: 20+ Mph (programmable)
• Charge time: 3-4 hours (plug and play)
• Suspension: Hydraulic Lock-out forks
• Brakes: Hydraulic F&R

Equipped with a 52V nominal mid-drive motor at 750W (980W peak power), the BM-Helio exemplifies the BMEBIKES standard for speed, performance, and excitement. Components feature front and rear hydraulic disc brakes, lock-out fork suspensions, and most importantly, the highly sought after 650B tires that provide all the advantages of 29ers (frame geometry, better traction, smoother ride) without sacrificing the performance of the 26” wheel. This e-bike is a true mountain hardtail.

The BM-Helio is built specifically for speed – this model is only available in 21” frames or higher, as it is the minimize frame size capable of withstanding the power of the Helio battery and motor. Extremely powerful yet perfectly balanced, Helio is prepared to take you to your destination – fast.

 

[Mike leroy]

So is that a vote for the Bultaco Mike? Any other thoughts?

The info you want is expressed in a chart like the following. Without the following data, I do not see how an intelligent decision can be made. Request the following info from both vendors, so you can compare tradeoffs accurately. If either vendor cannot or will not provide the following chart, then you have no reason to trust them. And you should be very skeptical without the following facts.

The intersection at RPM and Torque is key, because power is maximized at 80% efficiency.
160A, 100NM Torque, 700 RPM, 7200W output. That is the ultimate question I believe you are asking.

Torque is maximized where torque and output power intersect. Efficiency drops like a rock, from this point at 70% efficiency. 140A, 140Nm torque, 450 RPM, 6000W output.

Notice how highly correlated the lines (RPM inversely) are until 50 seconds, when the motor becomes 70% efficient. Amps and torque are on the same scale, and very closely correlated.

The motor loves to run between 450 and 700 RPM. You would definitely feel the motor response going up a hill in this range. The motor will start to fade and sound differently.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
My guess is the SportTechnik might resemble 240 to 600 RPM portion of the following chart, but that is only a very rough approximation for educational purposes. This chart is more similar to a Honda PCX150 10kw gas powered scooter engine, than an eBike motor.

the BME Helio 1kW version is probably better, because it is still Class 1 street legal in Calif. price is a real value at $2900. I really like the 52V / 19Amp electrical system! The stealth from all black camouflages the wires. the 8Fun torque sensor is an option I would wait for.

I believe Amps, Watts and Torque seriously mislead people. The more precise question is: "how does the controller software affect the performance of the motor and battery (electrical system) ?".

In other words, specification sheets suck for eBikes! Spec sheets only present a limited, static representation of hardware. Specification sheets are valid for conventional bicycles. Specification sheets conceal and obfuscate the very important dynamic, runtime interaction between man and machine. The variation between your and my leg power, in different conditions, has a greater influence on eBike performance than what specification sheets imply.

In the above dynamic performance chart, torque increase from 50 to 70Nm, while output in Watts drops from 7200W to 6300W, in the critical 350 to 700 RPM range. Granted, this is a scooter controller Under consideration for a high powered eBike. The performance characteristics are similar in a conceptual manner.

 

[Mike leroy]

Equally important is smooth uphill gear shifting across a 400% gear range. The four 5% grade increments below 20% have different speed ranges. Losing momentum when pedaling hard is unpleasant.

I do not know how the BBS02 performs on a 15% or 20% grade, but that is very important in my situation. Most people hit the brake lever to pause the motor while gear shifting, due to the lack of a torque sensor. I can not imagine myself shifting gears with that technique on my 18% grade. I expect my uphill speed would be between 5 and 10mph. I would reluctantly press the brakes at that slow speed.

The sport technik offers the NuVinci or Shimano 1x10 XT. Which would you choose?

The NuVinci is better suited to my hills. Some doubt has been expressed about NuVinici ability to handle 120Nm of torque. You might want to check out the 8Fun BBS02 experiences. Rohloff is the sure bet.

Five basic decision types are illustrated as Star Plots below. The tradeoffs you make will result in a decision that balances:

1. Benefits
2. Purposes
3. Costs
4. Risks
5. Biases

​

You are looking for a high performance bike. Very little evidence is available. So your decision is primarily Risky, Biased and Costly. The Bias stems from limited information, i.e, manufacturer spec sheets. The performance level you desire is Costly.

A greyhound dog named Raleigh loves to run in the local park with me. The type of bike you are looking for reminds me of Raleigh. Raleigh is so fast that he does 360 spins at 12mph. Raleigh cracks me up! Raleigh loves to run!

​

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

Well I have ridden ebikes and if tuned for regulation speed limits (for legality) then you sort of get to try to maximize your distance and run time before recharging. Alternatively you can option to run it at maximum power for speed. (we're not all commuting on minimum batteries here that is why these two bikes are appealing to me).

They have decent batteries and I like to be able to have the power there when I need it. I don't want to feel restricted, limited to worrying about running flat before I arrive at my destination which I calculated down to the last centimeter of battery-life.

These bikes also have had time and money and lots of thought put into their aesthetics. They are not just a bike with a motor and batteries slapped on it. These people have built the bike around the motor and batteries with consideration of the speed that it will be traveling at. They haven't just added disc brakes and a new back tyre.

They have safety and ride-ability in mind.

I already have 2000W on a DH MTB. It can handle it but it's borderline really.

Haibike is too slow for my liking. I really can't see how they justify the price. If it only goes 30KPH then it would want to be achievable by an 8 year old.

Also I don't like being a traffic hazard pissing everyone off because i am holding up the traffic. I like to be able get on with it and be a part of the traffic if need be and own my lane. Scooters struggling to make it up to the speed limit cause accidents and feel like a huge risk to be riding around. How are you suppose to power out of trouble all the time or pull out into that lane in the two car gap in the traffic?

It would be great to be able to test these two bikes out before I buy them but I am not going to be able to. Good thing I have experienced riding ebikes and I can pretty much understand and guess exactly what they are going to be like performance wise. You can't beat experience over theory. You might say experience is what you get when you lose. But it's not relevant here today.

 

[Mike leroy]

Well I have ridden ebikes and if tuned for regulation speed limits (for legality) then you sort of get to try to maximize your distance and run time before recharging. Alternatively you can option to run it at maximum power for speed. (we're not all commuting on minimum batteries here that is why these two bikes are appealing to me).

They have decent batteries and I like to be able to have the power there when I need it. I don't want to feel restricted, limited to worrying about running flat before I arrive at my destination which I calculated down to the last centimeter of battery-life.

These bikes also have had time and money and lots of thought put into their aesthetics. They are not just a bike with a motor and batteries slapped on it. These people have built the bike around the motor and batteries with consideration of the speed that it will be traveling at. They haven't just added disc brakes and a new back tyre.

They have safety and ride-ability in mind.

I already have 2000W on a DH MTB. It can handle it but it's borderline really.

Haibike is too slow for my liking. I really can't see how they justify the price. If it only goes 30KPH then it would want to be achievable by an 8 year old.

Also I don't like being a traffic hazard pissing everyone off because i am holding up the traffic. I like to be able get on with it and be a part of the traffic if need be and own my lane. Scooters struggling to make it up to the speed limit cause accidents and feel like a huge risk to be riding around. How are you suppose to power out of trouble all the time or pull out into that lane in the two car gap in the traffic?

It would be great to be able to test these two bikes out before I buy them but I am not going to be able to. Good thing I have experienced riding ebikes and I can pretty much understand and guess exactly what they are going to be like performance wise. You can't beat experience over theory. You might say experience is what you get when you lose. But it's not relevant here today.

Have you tried any web-based software simulators? If the simulator supports the model you desire, then you can get a close approximation. If you cross check theory against reality, by using Strava, you can obtain an accurate estimate as professional eBike engineers. The best understanding I get is by challenging bicyclists to races up hills in the 10% to 20% grade range. The key difference is I run rather than pedal. To my mind, no better way to understand what a watt truly means in mph.

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

Cheers for the simulator tip. Turns out they won't sell me the spitzing r pedelec. Is there anybody else out there that will? I'm wondering if they even have them in stock. It's a decent sale to turn down.

 

[Lenny]

Cheers for the simulator tip. Turns out they won't sell me the spitzing r pedelec. Is there anybody else out there that will? I'm wondering if they even have them in stock. It's a decent sale to turn down.

If you can wait a few weeks, we will be able to ship one to you. Which state are you in?

 

[Christian Pinkerton]

Okay did you want to know anything about the Spitzing r pedelec? From personal experience.

I can not compare it to the Bultaco just yet. I need a few more weeks realistically.

Christian.