Battery placement prissiness

[MisterM]

My Yaris gets me to the grocer as quickly and hauls as much as my neighbors Lexus. Style is secondary to utility. Recreational batteries will degrade as surely, and some sooner than my well managed commuter battery. They degrade over time.

A Yaris is purpose-built just like a Lexus. So why not purpose-build ebikes instead of being lazy and slapping a battery on a bike frame? Average Joe consumer doesn't want to spend thousands on what looks to be a slapped-together hobby kit. When the industry finally moves away from hobbyist/early adopters, then it will truly take off (Europeans already figured that out). Elon Musk proved it with the Tesla (plenty of crappily-designed EVs before the Tesla). Under your utility argument, Musk should have slapped battery packs on the side of an existing car - maybe a Yugo?

 

[tomjasz]

You make a value judgement with comments like “slapping on”. Many purpose built bikes use downtube mounts. You also undevalue the DIY market. It’s quite large and growing. So far the ready built market has l8mited sizing and geometry. Something important to many riders who find geometry important to comfort and efficiency. In the flat foot market the choices are extremely limited. I checked out one of the biggest ebike shops in the mid west and found the size options limited. The biggest selling mid drive is almost entirely “slapped together.” That view of this market segment is pretty darn narrow. YMMV but scarcely veiled insults of those deciding to be self sufficient won’t gain many friendly aquaintances. ‘Merkins aren’t likely to ever be anything near the EU market.

 

[MisterM]

You make a value judgement with comments like “slapping on”. Many purpose built bikes use downtube mounts. You also undevalue the DIY market. It’s quite large and growing. So far the ready built market has l8mited sizing and geometry. Something important to many riders who find geometry important to comfort and efficiency. In the flat foot market the choices are extremely limited. I checked out one of the biggest ebike shops in the mid west and found the size options limited. The biggest selling mid drive is almost entirely “slapped together.” That view of this market segment is pretty darn narrow. YMMV but scarcely veiled insults of those deciding to be self sufficient won’t gain many friendly aquaintances. ‘Merkins aren’t likely to ever be anything near the EU market.

Build it and they will come. Tesla proved it - public wants a good-looking well-designed product at an affordable price. Plenty of EVs failed because they didn't get it - they focused on utility/price and nobody (except hobbyists and early adopters) wanted anything to do with them. And yes, kits are still popular because so many so-called ebikes look like kits, so why pay thousands to buy a bike with a slapped-on battery when you can slap on a battery on your own bike?

My gripe is the industry can/should do so much better. Right now, many online guys take an off-the-rack bike designed for the uber-cost-conscious Chinese market, cobble together off-the-shelf components, slap on a battery (and a fat margin) and wonder why US consumers are underwhelmed. The industry doesn't need gee-whiz styling. It needs something blah, purpose-built, reliable and value-for-money like the Toyota Camry. Is that too much to ask? Instead, look at the sea of overpriced crap that the largest US seller (Pedego) sells - it's disgraceful design with an obscene price. Or go into your LBS and get sticker shock looking at underpowered Euro bikes. Why are we still seeing 36v 10ah batteries 250w motors on bikes with $4+K price tags?

 

[Kurt in CT]

[QUOTE="charlesbrenthirak, post: 137769, member: 17765"
Like this type design a lot. Enjoying this thread btw. For me esthetics matter. I looked so hard to find that perfect balance of price, stealth, bells & whistles, design and power. My number was about $2000. I love the look of the euro integration, but no way am I paying $4k. So never found it exactly, lost patience waiting for Magnum to come out with their stealth MTB, and am happy where I landed. You end up prioritizing, compromising here and there, and pulling the trigger.

 

[charlesbrenthirak]

[QUOTE="charlesbrenthirak, post: 137769, member: 17765"
Like this type design a lot. Enjoying this thread btw. For me esthetics matter. I looked so hard to find that perfect balance of price, stealth, bells & whistles, design and power. My number was about $2000. I love the look of the euro integration, but no way am I paying $4k. So never found it exactly, lost patience waiting for Magnum to come out with their stealth MTB, and am happy where I landed. You end up prioritizing, compromising here and there, and pulling the trigger.

I am kinda where you are. What is interesting (and fun) is that a search for a bike could become a kind of personal matter, where you are forced to engage things that are really important and delineate the things that are not. I am glad you found what you want and are waiting. Actually, this thread has led me back to considering a Juiced u500. I heard from their tech support that they are reworking things and may have a new model in Fall. I am tempted to wait also...

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I consider those designs a total fail - the batteries are visible and simply bolted on to an existing frame.

Specialized Turbo Levo emtb or EasyMotion ATOM Diamond Wave urban bikes are my idea of designs that ebike manufacturers should strive for. Sure, may cost a premium to replace some batteries, but most are riding recreationally and will be unlikely to ever need a replacement. If you're commuting, the extra cost is deminimus when considering cost per mile. No excuse to slap a battery on a frame like a fugly carbuncle.

I see the appeal to bikes like the Easy Motion and Turbo Levo, if style is high on your list of priorities. However, replacing batteries is much more than "de minimus" and batteries will need to be replaced, over time if not used much, and after X number of recharge cycles if in regular service.

My use of an ebike is more functional than recreational, so style doesn't matter as much as serviceability. For instance, I was able to get a 17.4 Ah battery when I bought my bike, rather than the 12.9 Ah that was standard. If I choose to (and I will in the not-too-distant future), I can upgrade further to a 21 Ah battery with no modifications to the bike. This is a plus, fugly carbuncle or not.

Finally, it's a lot easier to take my battery inside when the temperature drops then it is to take the whole bike inside. Low temperatures are bad for batteries.

The battery is often the single most expensive component of an ebike. It seems like costly wishful thinking to believe that it won't have to be replaced.

 

[tomjasz]

Build it and they will come. Tesla proved it - public wants a good-looking well-designed product at an affordable price. Plenty of EVs failed because they didn't get it - they focused on utility/price and nobody (except hobbyists and early adopters) wanted anything to do with them. And yes, kits are still popular because so many so-called ebikes look like kits, so why pay thousands to buy a bike with a slapped-on battery when you can slap on a battery on your own bike?

My gripe is the industry can/should do so much better. Right now, many online guys take an off-the-rack bike designed for the uber-cost-conscious Chinese market, cobble together off-the-shelf components, slap on a battery (and a fat margin) and wonder why US consumers are underwhelmed. The industry doesn't need gee-whiz styling. It needs something blah, purpose-built, reliable and value-for-money like the Toyota Camry. Is that too much to ask? Instead, look at the sea of overpriced crap that the largest US seller (Pedego) sells - it's disgraceful design with an obscene price. Or go into your LBS and get sticker shock looking at underpowered Euro bikes. Why are we still seeing 36v 10ah batteries 250w motors on bikes with $4+K price tags?

The electric car was killed. Toyota had a successful vehicle, that most testers wanted to keep, decades ago. That said, many of us don't "cobble". Rather build on proven frames and use quality components and often end up investing $3000 to build out a very reliable, easy parts access, very repairable, and comfortable rides. Bikes that might cost twice that if from an OEM.
I've railed against putting lipstick on pigs, Walmart bikes with 1500W motors and no further upgrades. The sensible builders Dump everything but the bare frame. At least they THINK it's a smart move. My LBS won't work on a cheap China bike, and I won't help anyone motorize ANY cheap frame. BUT to color the entire kit built world as cobbled is just plain unfair and short sighted. MANY of the improvements and advances have come form that market. Look at the work done by ebikes.ca for a glimpse.
I also believe one needs to be careful when shunning China. Show me a bike NOT builtin China and you'll see it's not. affordable for anyone but the wealthiest riders.

 

[tomjasz]

. Low temperatures are bad for batteries.

The battery is often the single most expensive component of an ebike. It seems like costly wishful thinking to believe that it won't have to be replaced.

Actually cold temps preserve batteries. Charging batteries when very cold is a bad idea. Batteries last longest at refrigerator temperatures.

 

[bob armani]

Actually cold temps preserve batteries. Charging batteries when very cold is a bad idea. Batteries last longest at refrigerator temperatures.

Really? I was told to keep my batteries at optimum room temperature to stay acclimated, keep them topped off and try to avoid running it below 10% to get the best longevity/performance. Does this still hold true during off season, etc?

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Actually cold temps preserve batteries. Charging batteries when very cold is a bad idea. Batteries last longest at refrigerator temperatures.

That's accurate as far as it goes. But using a battery when it's already cold also puts stress on it, for the same reason that charging does. So if I leave my battery on the bike in low temps and then go riding at 28 mph, I'll be taking some of the usable life off it.

 

[J.R.]

Actually, this thread has led me back to considering a Juiced u500. I heard from their tech support that they are reworking things and may have a new model in Fall

That was a good offering. I thought they discontinued the model. It would be great if they updated and reintroduced it. The downside to the old model was there wasn't an option for pedal assist, neither cadence or torque sensing and the battery wasn't removable. Given Juiced other models now all offering PAS, I'd bet any new U500 will be based on their newer assist drive with throttle option. If they include a removable battery pack that would be a cargo bike hard to beat.

I see the appeal to bikes like the Easy Motion and Turbo Levo, if style is high on your list of priorities. However, replacing batteries is much more than "de minimus" and batteries will need to be replaced, over time if not used much, and after X number of recharge cycles if in regular service.

My use of an ebike is more functional than recreational, so style doesn't matter as much as serviceability. For instance, I was able to get a 17.4 Ah battery when I bought my bike, rather than the 12.9 Ah that was standard. If I choose to (and I will in the not-too-distant future), I can upgrade further to a 21 Ah battery with no modifications to the bike. This is a plus, fugly carbuncle or not.

Finally, it's a lot easier to take my battery inside when the temperature drops then it is to take the whole bike inside. Low temperatures are bad for batteries.

The battery is often the single most expensive component of an ebike. It seems like costly wishful thinking to believe that it won't have to be replaced.

The massive batteries offered by Juiced is a big deal. It looks like many brands are starting to understand we want to and will ride farther. There are certainly enough bike styles around to make everyone happy, but one thing that every ebiker wants to avoid is range anxiety.

Speaking of batteries in the cold, has anyone offered a cold weather battery cover for that style of battery yet? We're seeing more of those style battery packs, someone likely sells one. I've used one for my bikes the last 4 years and on really cold days it has extended range. Like you I don't leave the battery in the cold longer than I have to. I don't know of too many non-removable packs, except for the really hidden ones on ebikes like the Faraday bikes.

 

[Alex M]

Build it and they will come.

Or they will not. Build 5 times more Lexus cars and see if customers will come.

The industry doesn't need gee-whiz styling. It needs something blah, purpose-built, reliable and value-for-money

Let's not worry about the industry. It's what the customer needs, and he doesn't always want to spend much. It's been said many times - purpose-built cost more. And so does reliability, the better are parts, the higher is price.

look at the sea of overpriced crap that the largest US seller (Pedego) sells - it's disgraceful design with an obscene price.

Ah, just one of those marketing tricks. Fool is born every minute. There are better and cheaper designs to choose from. I would not pay extra for a luxury to use their wide dealership network, and sorry to say, - this is the only good thing about Pedego. Average motor, average to poor design and styling.

 

[Alex M]

Show me a bike NOT builtin China and you'll see it's not affordable for anyone but the wealthiest riders.

Very few remain. Court mentioned some in his interview of Myron's store in Ca (I think it was local Ca brand). No, not expensive at all. But they are nothing special, either.
US and most EU manufacturing is dead or dying, infrastructure is lost. Everything has been sold out to China, with a usual excuse of "staying competitive". Greed has no limits. Or, as backers of so-called globalization prefer to say, "money knows no borders". Good old capitalism, what can you do...

Quality control in China (and any kind of control or following standards) does present a big problem.

 

[Over50]

...public wants a good-looking well-designed product at an affordable price ... buy a bike with a slapped-on battery when you can slap on a battery on your own bike...

When I first started shopping in 2016 I wanted a bike with an internally housed battery. I dropped that requirement when I found the options were limited (Stromer and Kalkhoff Integrale were two I looked at). After having the Bosch bikes for a while now, the aesthetics of the external pack don't bother me anymore and I've come to appreciate the flexibility of the externally mounted powerpacks. I can quickly and easily remove the pack, throw it in my backpack. I can use the neoprene cover in cold weather (no tight tolerances of an internal downtube battery housing to worry about). I also don't think the externally mounted battery looks bad on purpose built bikes that have burly frames. Where I do think it looks odd is on the kit bikes where a dolphin pack is used on a bike with a skinny frame. So I guess I'm a member of the public too and I happen to think the purpose built bikes with external battery mounts are not an indication of a design failure or laziness (and most to me are still aesthetically pleasing).

Now if offering an intube design brings a true performance benefit then I'm all over that and would quickly choose that as an option. I'm specifically referring to Riese and Muller's New Charger and the Haibike SDuro Trekking 9.0 wherein you will be able to optionally mount an external powerpack on top of the downtube's internally-housed battery for a dual battery option.

 

[tomjasz]

Really? I was told to keep my batteries at optimum room temperature to stay acclimated, keep them topped off and try to avoid running it below 10% to get the best longevity/performance. Does this still hold true during off season, etc?

There is significant research regarding storage temps. All available with a quick Google.
One of the best lectures on youtube comes from a university in Canada. I’ll try and find it again to share. There man6 anecdotal reports, including mine. I have 12 batteries, several in their 5th season. I used one of the best data sou4ces in addition to the lecture. ebikes.ca an invaluable source of scientific data. My first battery was. 36v 10s4p 29e cells. Still better than 84% and 4 winters of below freezing rides. Never charged cold. But many runs at half powe4 due to the cold. Both batteries have been tested using the Grin CA2 battery tester, with great results. R7nning a cold battery simply means sagging power. No damage that I can find. And test data shows no damage, just the results one would expect after more than 800 cycles.

 

[tomjasz]

When I first started shopping in 2016 I wanted a bike with an internally housed battery. I dropped that requirement when I found the options were limited (Stromer and Kalkhoff Integrale were two I looked at). After having the Bosch bikes for a while now, the aesthetics of the external pack don't bother me anymore and I've come to appreciate the flexibility of the externally mounted powerpacks. I can quickly and easily remove the pack, throw it in my backpack. I can use the neoprene cover in cold weather (no tight tolerances of an internal downtube battery housing to worry about). I also don't think the externally mounted battery looks bad on purpose built bikes that have burly frames. Where I do think it looks odd is on the kit bikes where a dolphin pack is used on a bike with a skinny frame. So I guess I'm a member of the public too and I happen to think the purpose built bikes with external battery mounts are not an indication of a design failure or laziness (and most to me are still aesthetically pleasing).

Now if offering an intube design brings a true performance benefit then I'm all over that and would quickly choose that as an option. I'm specifically referring to Riese and Muller's New Charger and the Haibike SDuro Trekking 9.0 wherein you will be able to optionally mount an external powerpack on top of the downtube's internally-housed battery for a dual battery option.

In my NSHO, we should be demanding standarized battery packs. Selling proprietary 13s, 5-6p packs for tripple the value will not grow the industry.

Using, Tesla as an example is far from a reasonable comparison. I see several eBikes a day, but a Tesla is rare. Tesla a favored company run by a personal hero offers me hope for the future, but as it stands an incredibly small market segment. I’m most excited about cobbling a new battery with their latest cell. Tesla battery manufacturing could make USA built batteries affordable. Creating serious competition for those asshats making packs proprietary. See recent Bionx reports of bankruptcy.

BTW, i can buy a USA built, best current technology, battery pack for a lot less than some branded, spendy eBike designer. Damned if some of the one or two bike experts aren’ t completely insulated and making judgements based on anecdotal forum posts. Please, lets use bes5 data available and not make thos3 who can’t spend $2500 feel like second class citizens.

For the most part we all want the same thing. Let’s focus on best technology...

Sorry, didnt spiel chick or grammar review....

 

[tomjasz]

Quality control in China (and any kind of control or following standards) does present a big problem.

But any number of companies have shown, it can be done. I have several frames that are better than the 70’s Schwinn. Lighter, better paint, and pretty universal for parts replacement. I remain saddened that Electra dumbed down thie4 frames, but 12 years ago, todays $500 bike was near $900. Old lefty that i am dreams of “the peopls bike”. <wink>

 

[tomjasz]

That's accurate as far as it goes. But using a battery when it's already cold also puts stress on it, for the same reason that charging does. So if I leave my battery on the bike in low temps and then go riding at 28 mph, I'll be taking some of the usable life off it.

Stress in that you’ll see sag, but there is no data showing any damage. The real enemy damaging Li ion batteries is heat, not cold. Cold reduces performance, heat degrades cells.

 

[tomjasz]

Really? I was told to keep my batteries at optimum room temperature to stay acclimated, keep them topped off and try to avoid running it below 10% to get the best longevity/performance. Does this still hold true during off season, etc?

Sure, room temperatures for maximum performance. Again, best data indicates 80% charge can double battery life. Not going to far below nominal voltage, can also improve life span.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Stress in that you’ll see sag, but there is no data showing any damage. The real enemy damaging Li ion batteries is heat, not cold. Cold reduces performance, heat degrades cells.

Depends on where you get your data. I'm a ham radio operator, and we have extensive experience with battery usage and management. I can't point to any studies conducted by hams that would pass scientific scrutiny. Just thousands of hours of actual field experience. I'm going with that.

It seems, Thomas, that your approach is more "if it isn't in a peer-reviewed journal it doesn't count." Let's stop haggling with each other over this stuff. We both have a lot to offer folks who are newer to all of this than we are, and in the absence of actual harmful advice, let's just let it go.