Any Users of the Bosch Smart System e-Bikes Here?

[Stefan Mikes]

If I am not wrong, Bosch E-Bike announced their Smart System in Autumn 2021 and it was really rolled out and enhanced in August 2022. Currently, the Smart System has found its way to some Trek products, to new Gazelle e-bikes, and it is endorsed by several large German e-bike manufacturers as well as a few other outside Germany. The adoption of the new system seems to be slow as the interested OEMs need to design brand new e-bikes to accommodate the new system.

Were Bosch out with their new system earlier (and the Smart System e-bikes available earlier), I could be very much interested to buy a Smart System ride:

• Reportedly, an excellent and reliable motor
• Huge 750 Wh battery
• Connectivity promised with the Kiox 300 display and with the new app allowing customization of assistance levels

Any users of Smart System e-bikes there? Share your views!

I'm very much interested what type of connectivity the new system can offer, and how do you assess the assistance tuning options.

Note: I'm not interested in the GPS navigation options available in the system (it is hard to be as good as Garmin or Wahoo or Hammerhead).

 

[fordan]

I got the Smart System on the 750Wh R&M Multicharger I bought last year. I'm a fan, but I haven't had anything to compare it to. I'm a fan of the nav they added though you aren't interested in it. Haven't played a lot with the assistance tuning as I'm generally happy with the levels as they are by default.

I am dropping it off with a Bosch dealer tomorrow to have the Bosch Connect Module retrofitted onto my ebike. That gets me Flow+ and their better anti-theft system with a built-in GPS and mobile module that thieves have to disassemble the motor to get to.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am dropping it off with a Bosch dealer tomorrow to have the Bosch Connect Module retrofitted onto my ebike. That gets me Flow+ and their better anti-theft system with a built-in GPS and mobile module that thieves have to disassemble the motor to get to.

I will be very much interested to hear about these features too! Thank you!

What display was fetched with your e-bike?

 

[fordan]

My ebike came with the Kiox 300. I'm also picking up a SmartphoneGrip as an alternative so I can optionally use and charge my iPhone on the display mount since it's not an expensive option, relatively speaking. Part of that was fear of having a drained iPhone battery locking me out of my bike but Bosch just released an update allowing you to use the Kiox display as a key as well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

SmartphoneGrip

Is it good? I hope Bosch E-Bike has learnt the lesson of the Smartphone Hub, which was not really good?

 

[AvalancheRun]

2023 Gazelle C380, 625 wh, 75 nm Performance Line. This is my first ebike, so I don't have equal time on other ebikes to compare it to. I have a decade and half of experience riding bikes around cities.

Pros

• Auto mode is fantastic. It's truly a "set it and forget it" mode. The only time I bump up to turbo is to start off the line faster in urban riding, or to sustain 19 mph with less effort. The app allows some customization of the modes including how much support they give, and the onset of the motor. I made the motor start more aggressively in turbo. Sometimes that quasi-moped feeling is appropriate. Slight downside with this tuning is a very subtle clunking of the crank arms since the motor wants to keep moving.
• Integration with the Flow app records all of my trips automatically, then it shoots them over to Strava. If I stop it pauses the trip. At the end of the day the riding history is uploaded, unless manual stopped after a ride.
• Range on the bike is 50 miles in hilly conditions and 100 degree weather, 70% Auto, 30% turbo. Bike has about 20-25 extra lbs at all times + 175 lb rider. I have to believe the new Auto mode helps with efficiency. Auto seems to provide turbo-level power when needed, while the benefit of turbo is immediacy and gaining more momentum in a short window.
• Kiox 300 is very bright in heavy direct Texas sun
• The navigation maps provide you with three styles: touring, commuting, and mountain bike trails. I find them to be excellent much of the time.
• The "Phone as Key" feature works well. Turn on the bike then 5 seconds later it unlocks provided the phone is nearby, locks on power down. Makes a locking sound via the motor.
• The Flow app draws the route traveled in realtime. It’s nice having a line of breadcrumbs for exploring new areas.

Cons

• Bosch does not want you modifying your bike even in the most basic ways, and provides zero technical information to the end user. Want to add a light, radar, dashcam, etc.? No information given on the power ports, no option to buy splitter cables, adapter cables, etc. You must go through the dealer and they must do the work.
• Kiox 300 has no power option for phone. IIRC older Bosch head units have this feature. NBD for my phone, but could have been useful for adding a dashcam.
• Navigation via Kiox worked wonderfully on the first 3 rides, but then hit many snags. It intermittently loses the connection to the phone, requiring a stop and re-entry of route. The display screen provides very little context beyond the immediate next turn, and no street names. Just too much hassle. I opted for a phone mount and actually removed the Kiox 300 all together. The Bosch motor and Flow app have all of the functionality without requiring the screen (actually a big positive!). If I need to have GPS, I can use the Flow app, Google Maps, Komoot, etc. The battery level and support mode are visible on the physical controller, or in the Flow app.
• Top speed is limited to 20 mph (really like 19.3) with the 75 nm Performance Line. Why not unlock this for the North American market? Specialized sells exclusively class 3 ebikes.I thought it would be possible to just pedal harder but the resistence is so strong. I would get winded trying to sustain 21 mph for more than a minute.

Neutral

• IMO the connect module should maybe be a part of the system. These bikes are pricey. Stuffing the connect module next to the motor (and in front of the power ports) seems like an obvious afterthought in the design.
• 75 nm motor is nice and quiet, but sometimes I wish it had more power. 85 nm Bosch motors are too noisy (are the 85 nm motors smart system generation?) Without a doubt the 75 nm was the best choice for me and power is more than sufficient 95% of the time.

Future bike purchases

• For a touring bike, more power, more battery (not an issue now, but for future-proofing), at least as quiet as the current bike, less restrictive, less prioprietary system.

Hope this helps! Sorry if it's a little beyond the scope, but certain things overlap.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Avalanche, two comments:

• Bosch E-Bike works on the Bosch - OEM - distributor - dealer model. It is not very much different to Specialized, only there is no OEM there as Specialized owns its systems while Gazelle or Trek do not own the systems (Bosch does).
• Bosch E-Bike is a very strict German company. They provide the Speed (Class 3) motors only to OEMs such as Trek or R&M who agree to build Euro L1e-B mopeds (such as Trek Allant+ S or R&M HS). The rest gets Class 1 motors. Moreover, Bosch is very strict about the world regions. A 32 km/h 20 mph motor will only be delivered for e-bikes to be sold in North America. 45 km/h 28 mph e-bikes cannot be sold to Canada etc. While Specialized only changes the software settings per region and sells the same e-bike as Class 3 in the U.S., as 32 km/h in Canada, and as 25 km/h in Europe and Australia. Ya, but Specialized is an American company with the Turbo division in Switzerland; they think differently to Bosch.

Specialized breaks no law in any world region. Bosch is as paranoiac as its prevents any chance to break the law by hard-coding their motors per region. That's why your Gazelle is Class 1. Making a Gazelle Class 3 would turn it in a very expensive L1e-B e-bike with Type Approval, which is not required in the U.S,

 

[AvalancheRun]

Yep, that’s fair and I mostly understood that going in. What I didn’t anticipate is bumping up against the proprietary roadblocks. As I enjoyed riding my bike longer and longer, I looked for ways to extend the outings, hence all of those accessories became more important.

For what it’s worth Gazelle also has Class 3 bikes in the US with the Speed motors. I already mentioned my issue with them, which is they are little howler monkeys. Grass is always greener but I’m digging the Specialized ethos more and more. Might end up with one next time around.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For what it’s worth Gazelle also has Class 3 bikes in the US with the Speed motors. I already mentioned my issue with them, which is they are little howler monkeys.

Bosch has been slow with the release of Speed Smart System motors. Designing, building and type approving takes the OEM even more time...

 

[fordan]

Is it good? I hope Bosch E-Bike has learnt the lesson of the Smartphone Hub, which was not really good?

I'll know when I get my bike back from the shop since I had them order the Grip at the same time they ordered the Connect Module.

Unfortunately what was supposed to be a one-hour installation process has been extended, since the R&M-provided motor cover won't fit with the module in place. The shop is reaching out to R&M to see if they have a different one and to Bosch as well.

 

[StuGuy]

2023 Bulls Iconic Evo 1 750 Wave (Bosch Performance Line CX Smart System (85 Nm) w/ 750 Wh Smart System and Kiox 300 Display)

1. The clarity of the display in all conditions exceeded my expectations. My original intention was to switch to the smartphone grip but I'm happy enough with the display to leave well enough alone for now.
2. Flow app customization couldn't be easier but I'm hoping more connectivity is in the pipeline. Navigation function hasn't been critical to me so far, so I can't be of help on that front.
3. Apple watch integration of the Flow app was a pleasant surprise.
4. Quick response of the motor is a joy compared to the hub motor in my last ebike. I'm a heavy weight, and I chose this bike in large part because of the grunt offered by this motor. It doesn't disappoint.
5. I'm on the fence about battery size versus battery weight. It's the same range debate as with EVs - i.e., because you can charge overnight, why have a battery with much more capacity than you can foreseeably use in a typical day? That being said, it's a delight to get in several rides without having to think about a recharge. Also, the larger battery offers a cushion against battery degradation, which is an issue I faced with the battery in my last ebike.
6. Like everyone else, I'd love to see Bosch allow this motor to be unlocked in North America to at least 28 mph. That way, I could keep up with my wife when she kicks her Trek Verve+ 4S (Bosch Performance Line Sport, 65Nm, 28mph) into Turbo.

Cheers all!

​

 

[AvalancheRun]

This is an excellent overview.

Is anyone using Sprint mode? I'm not sure I'd be willing to sacrifice one of my current modes (turbo, auto, tour+, eco), but it does look interesting.

 

[Stephen - Bosch Team]

My ebike came with the Kiox 300. I'm also picking up a SmartphoneGrip as an alternative so I can optionally use and charge my iPhone on the display mount since it's not an expensive option, relatively speaking. Part of that was fear of having a drained iPhone battery locking me out of my bike but Bosch just released an update allowing you to use the Kiox display as a key as well.

Fear not! The Smartphone Grip offers wireless charging to your iPhone.

 

[Stephen - Bosch Team]

I'll know when I get my bike back from the shop since I had them order the Grip at the same time they ordered the Connect Module.

Unfortunately what was supposed to be a one-hour installation process has been extended, since the R&M-provided motor cover won't fit with the module in place. The shop is reaching out to R&M to see if they have a different one and to Bosch as well.

Howdy @fordan--- I believe I am quite privy to your situation as I was assisting that dealer from the Bosch side. Apologies for the delay that took trying to track down the proper RM part you needed. I hope things are on a quick path at this point.

 

[Stephen - Bosch Team]

Is it good? I hope Bosch E-Bike has learnt the lesson of the Smartphone Hub, which was not really good?

The Smartphone Grip definitely comes with design improvements from the Smartphone Hub in System 2. Wider and deeper jaws can accommodate more versions of phones. Wireless charging is also standard.

 

[PDL]

Howdy @fordan--- I believe I am quite privy to your situation as I was assisting that dealer from the Bosch side. Apologies for the delay that took trying to track down the proper RM part you needed. I hope things are on a quick path at this point.

Hi Stephen,
Would you be able to tell me the motor cover part number that will allow fitting of the connectmodule? I have a riese and muller multicharger mixte 2022 and my dealer could not fit it last year since it didn't fit under the cover the bike came with. I spent a month emailing RM and Bosch and then gave up, but would love to fit it now if possible. I've been using Biketrax, but it's not a smooth experience.

Thanks for any guidance you can provide!

Peter

 

[TrevorB]

Yep, that’s fair and I mostly understood that going in. What I didn’t anticipate is bumping up against the proprietary roadblocks. As I enjoyed riding my bike longer and longer, I looked for ways to extend the outings, hence all of those accessories became more important.

For what it’s worth Gazelle also has Class 3 bikes in the US with the Speed motors. I already mentioned my issue with them, which is they are little howler monkeys. Grass is always greener but I’m digging the Specialized ethos more and more. Might end up with one next time around.

There are lot of trails that don't allow class 3 bikes which is why Bosch powered MTBs tend to be class 2. Bosch offer two 28mph motors. Speed which is 85nm CX motor with different power curve, gives more support at higher speed. The Sport which is 75nm PerformanceLine (recently upgraded from 65nm) which has 28mph cutoff but power delivery isn't really designed for sustained 28mph riding, more odd burst.

Lack of class 3 options isn't Bosch's fault.
Its bike manufacturers that decide what motors they fit to which bikes not Bosch.

 

[AvalancheRun]

There are lot of trails that don't allow class 3 bikes which is why Bosch powered MTBs tend to be class 2. Bosch offer two 28mph motors. Speed which is 85nm CX motor with different power curve, gives more support at higher speed. The Sport which is 75nm PerformanceLine (recently upgraded from 65nm) which has 28mph cutoff but power delivery isn't really designed for sustained 28mph riding, more odd burst.

Lack of class 3 options isn't Bosch's fault.
Its bike manufacturers that decide what motors they fit to which bikes not Bosch.

Not really sure what this comment is adding?

I could have bought a class 3 Bosch but they are super noisy. That’s it.

Specialized makes a more powerful class 3 that is very quiet.