[#15][M2S ebike] A 60volt Reention Dorado-casing battery on a 48volt ebike-- WOW!!!
HotDamn, have I got a story for you. It involves the Reention Dorado-casing style of battery https://wiredebikes.com/products/60v-20ah-battery and, as usual, it's gonna be a long one.
First of all, let me give you a run-down on the three ebikes involved in this awesome adventure:
1).2018 M2S(brand) KUSH(model) dual-suspension fat tire (26”x4”tires)(now called R750FS) https://ride.m2sbikes.com/products/full-suspension-electric-fat-bike) using a 750 watt BaFang rear hub motor. It's original battery was48volt/16ah(aka a16 gallon gas tank).
2). 2019 M2S(brand) R750HT(model) HardTail (front suspension only) fat tire (26”x4” tires) https://ride.m2sbikes.com/collections/all-electric-bikes/products/all-terrain-electric-fat-bike using a 750 watt BaFang rear hub motor. It's original battery was 48volt/16ah(aka a 16 gallon gas tank).
3).2021 ArielRider(brand) X52(model) dual-suspension fat tire (20”x4”tires) https://arielrider.com/products/x-class-52v using a 1000 watt (but it is actually a Hengtai750W Fat Tire E-bike motor. I will address this item later over on the ArielRider forum) metal geared rear hub motor. It's original battery was 52v/18ah(aka a18 gallon gas tank).
All 3 of the aforementioned batteries use the Reention Dorado-style outer casing.
So, there you have it for the actors in this really convoluted scenario that I am about to try to explain.
If you have kept up with my other fourteen M2S-affilliated threads hereon the EBR website forums section, you know that I have a very special regard for this company(M2S) and its awesome ebikes. There is a good reason for that mindset. I consider them to be to ebikes what the VOLVO brand is to automobiles. Different.. Unique.. Special.. Ultra-dependable.. The very best, though stealth, as in “under the radar”..
Now for the miles on the three aforementioned ebikes:
The 2018 KUSH has 22,250 miles.
The 2019 R750HT has 15,500 miles.
The 2021 X52 has 16,383 miles.
If you are familiar with this thread of mine: Thread watched UPDATE on Aug 5,2023 [#14][M2S] .. I FINALLY killed my ebike battery.. new info: times 3.. PickleBall info, too. then you know about my multiple (currently 5) Reention Dorado(the style of the outer case) batteries. I thought I had the overall ebike/battery scenario completely under control. 3ebikes.. 5 batteries.. Life was good.. But, NNOOOOO!!!!
The following incident occurred on Aug 19th (19 days ago).
The mighty ArielRider X52 mini-beast, at mile 16,383, went totally into rear hub motor grindage. I mean an absolutely internal metal “guts” meltdown. That riding incident, as posted here: [#10]X52.. My 2021 X52 has major rear hub motor “grindage” at mile16,383. ,occurred on Aug 19th(19 days ago). With the X52 out of commission for god knows how long, I have, once again, been having to rely on my two ultra-trusty M2S beasties. And man, have they stepped in and really delivered-- in SPADES.
Now for a quick analogy in comparing the 3 different voltage batteries:
The 48volt unit is the equivalent of a V-6 engine in a sporty car. Nothing to be ashamed of.
The 52volt unit is the equivalent of a V-8 engine in that same car. A really nice increase in power/torque.
The 60volt unit is the equivalent of that V-8 engine being fitted with a supercharger/turbocharger. HOLY CRAP!!!! Un-frigging-believable extra power/torque..
And, there you have it. Reality, fer sure.
Initially, while continuing to go on my daily 50 mile rides utilizing only the two M2S ebikes, I was relying on various combinations of my two 52volt batteries and the one 48volt/14.5ah(14.5 gallon) battery. After a handful of riding days, I decided that I might as well integrate the two 60volt/20ah(20 gallons) batteries into the rotation, too. I had originally purchased them to use on the AR X52, which comes standard with a 52volt battery. I would use the two 52volt batteries on the pair of M2S ebikes (when new, they came equipped with 48volt/16ah(16 gallon) batteries).
Using an “up” voltage battery in place of whatever came as original equipment, would not/should not result in a potential catastrophic motor/controller meltdown situation. A 4 volt difference (48v up to52v) or an 8 volt difference (52v up to 60v) would only cause the battery icon, as displayed on your handlebar-mounted CDU(computerdisplay unit), to be inaccurate.
However, the upside would be a slightly noticeable increase in power output UNTIL such time as the “up” battery had enough miles per ride to have dwindled down to the maximum parameter of the original battery.
Case in point:
A 48volt battery actually has a maximum output (@100% charge) of 54volts. A 52volt battery actually has a maximum output (@100% charge) of 59volts.
So, that 52volt battery, after 6 or 7 miles of riding, will have dwindled down to 54volts. You now have a “48volt battery at 100% charge”. The downside is that, the 48volt battery has a minimum discharge of39volts, at which point the battery BMS(Battery Management System--located inside the “head” of the battery casing) will shut down the battery completely-- as a safeguard. However, the “up” 52volt battery has a minimum discharge of 42volts (3 volts more than the 48vbattery). So, when that minimum voltage is attained, the 52voltbattery will shut down. Thus, your “battery” icon on the 48voltebike CDU display, still showing 1 or 2 bars (out of 5), will be unreliable.
Your best course of action is to be attuned to how far (distance) your 48vebike goes on its original battery. The “up” 52v battery should/will go at least that distance. This is assuming that both batteries have the same ah factor (or, as I like to refer to it, the same size gas tank(gallon-wise).
Ok, so you are now tuned in to the 48v/52v scenario. Now I'm gonna jump into the 48v/60v formula.
If you read anything/everything on this EBR forum, or view any YouTube video, the common agenda is NO!!NO!! NO!! DO NOT DO IT!!!The difference between the 48volt ebike and the 60volt ebike is just too great. Your 48v ebike controller(the brains of any ebike) cannot handle the power input as delivered from the mighty “up” 60volt battery. A electrical component meltdown will occur in short order. Many lives will be lost as a result of the “mixing”. The Horror, The Horror.
Well, I'm here to tell you that, at least in the case of my TWO M2S ebike beasts, with their total of almost 38,000 miles ridden, the aforementioned calamity has not been the case.
[SideNote: Some more food for thought. Just so you know, the replacement controller for both of my two M2S ebikes is here https://ride.m2sbikes.com/products/parts-replacement-r750-controller-1?variant=41523525648524 ] By the way, I have no idea as to the controller spec's (volts,amps, watts, etc.), as used on my two M2S ebikes.
I have to admit that I was really reluctant to commence this journey to the Dark Side. I had just had one ebike beast (the X52) go into “stupid mode”. The last thing I wanted was for one, or both, of my other beasts to also go into frying pan meltdown. But, what the heck, I can't allow those 2 brand new 60v/20ah (20 gallon) ReentionDorado casing batteries to just set around for weeks (or even months).
One option was to just charge them up to 90%(61volts) and pretend they were 52volt units. The downside to said formula is the 60v'er minimum charge of 48volts (as opposed to a 52v'ers of 42v, or a 48v'ers of39v) meant that I would be snipping off mileage at both the top end AND at the bottom end of the 60volt battery spectrum. Kind of like going on a road trip in your car and never being able to utilize a full tank of gas-- you only have between ¾ tank and ¼tank of fuel available. Anything above or below those settings will be unobtainable. Bummer deal, fer sure.. Let's face it, a reduction at both ends means many more stops to re-fuel that car.
A more realistic solution would be the following:
I knew that, after around 10 miles into a ride, the 60volt(67volt maximum) battery would decrease output down to around 59volts, which is a 52volt batteries actual maximum output. And, since I had been using 52 volt batteries (at 100% charge) on both my M2S beasts for almost 2 years, the “danger Will Robbins” (per the robot inLostInSpace) factor would then be a non-issue.
However, for that first 10 miles, I would have to really “finesse” my use of the thumb throttle/PAS # setting, etc. It would be kind of like driving a really bad-ass sports car. Gentle acceleration. No full-throttle crap. Nothing that might fry the controller and/or rear hub motor. At least, not until that magical 10 mile mark had been reached. In actuality, pedaling would prove to be “so light” as to almost be considered an after-thought.
I have always used PAS 0-9 on both of my M2S ebikes. And it's a dang good thing, too. That 60volt upgrade, at PAS#1(of 9), was just itching to get down the friggin' road. The torque/power available was astonishing. In my 7+ years of ebike adventures, I had never encountered a feeling that made my heart race. But, this set-up was doing it. I wanted so badly to use full thumb throttle from the get-go. The 750watt BaFang rear hub motor was itching to get that extra power. So, if you are currently using a PAS 0-3 or a PAS 0-5 display, you need to change it to PAS 0-9. Otherwise, you will be dealing with way too much oomph right off the bat. A bummer, fer sure (though VERY exciting).
However, “meltdown city” was constantly entering the equation. So, backoff I did-- for awhile. Then, when I finally did get to that 10 mile point, I let 'er rip. And DAMN, did that frigging ebike want to dance.
I completed a 50 mile ride that day (I had also brought along one of the 52volt batteriesfor JustInCase).
The60volt battery had taken me 40 miles before its minimum voltage of “48volts” was displaying on my voltmeter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093KTM1PS? (I will have comments about the voltmeter shortly).
At that 40mile/48volt mark, I swapped the 60volt'er for the 52volt'er because I didn't want the 60volt battery to shut down (through its' BMS program). Ten miles back to the casa. HotDamn, was I a Crappy Hamper, er Happy Camper. Noproblems. No glitches. Just a real kick-ass power trip. That first trip/experiment was aboard the 2019 R750HT ebike (15,500 miles).
The following day, I did the exact same route, using the same 60voltbattery, aboard the 2018 KUSH (R750FS) ebike(22,250 miles). It attained 43miles before the “48volt” indication appeared. Again, the swap out for the 52volt'er and then 7 miles back to home.
On the 3rd day,I did the same as the 1st day, only this time I mounted the second 60volt battery. It, too, went 40 miles before “48volt” appeared on the voltmeter. How crazy was that? Two different batteries and both had EXACTLY the same results.
On the 4th day,I did the exact same as on the 2nd day, and once again, I got exactly the same distance: 43 miles. Same ebike, different 60volt battery. I have to admit that I was
a). blown away by the distance (low-to-mid 30's was normal for the 52volt batteries) and
b). the fact that I really, really, really wanted to “git down and dirty” when aboard the 60volt set-up on each/both ebikes.
The“power rush” was awesome. I have since been doing rides every day for the past 14+ days as I continue to explore this new (and exciting) frontier. I will admit that “meltdown” is still constantly in the back of my lil' peanut brain. I constantly strain to “hear” any little mechanical deviation.
The outside air temperatures have been in the mid-to-high 90's during my daily cruises. I stop every 15 miles to touch the controller box, checking for possible excessive “warmness”. Nothing there. Warm, but definitely within limits. Both of these M2S ebikes have given me 6years/5years of outstanding service. That being the case, if I do go into “stupid mode” and allow a mechanical/electrical situation to arise, I will at least have gotten my $$$ worth IN SPADES!!
An interesting side effect of this new scenario is that, over the years, I have seldom used the thumb throttle more than 10% of the time whenever on a 50 mile ride-- the unit on each of these M2S ebikes is still the original one. On the other hand, my AR X52 mini-beast is currently on its 4th throttle-- one every 5,000 miles.. All 3 ebikes use the exact same “3-pin male” connection: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CKBV1M3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Now, once I reach the 10 mile point, I'm finding myself to be using that dang throttle 95% of the time for the duration of the ride/adventure-- right up until that “48volt” shows on the voltmeter display. And, I'm still getting 40+ miles per 60volt battery. Both of those M2S ebikes just love to git down the road. I looked down once and saw “32mph” on the speedometer, and that was on a flat stretch of road. Plus, there was more power/speed to give, but I freaked out and backed down. That (32mph) is exactly the same speed as my ArielRider X52mini-beast is notorious for going, when at full throttle. But, speed is not my forte'. It sure is a real yuck, though.
Now for some info about the voltmeter.
If you decide to venture in to Sic Puppy land and experiment with different “voltage” battery scenario's, you may as well install one of these little boxes onto your dashboard area. It won't take up much space AND it only weighs as much as a bunny fart, so you can mount it using strong double-stick tape or velcro. There is a multitude of these displays available on the internet. I prefer the unit I “linked” above because all the user buttons (2) are located right there on the front panel.
[SideNote]:These voltmeters use very fine wiring. Too easy to break. Ifneeded, additional wiring harnesses can be purchased at your localhobby shop. Drones, r/c cars/boats/airplanes use these same items. Just be sure to take the voltmeter stuff with you for verification of proper fit. ]
You will initially want to be pressing those “setting” buttons, depending on which voltage battery you are riding with(48v/52v/60v). However, that will quickly become tiresome and you will realize that the ONLY thing that matters is VOLT. Even the “battery remaining” icon will prove to be extraneous because different voltage batteries will each “display” differently. ALL you need to know is VOLTs. Maximum for each battery. Minimum for each battery. When you descend to that lower volt #, it is time to go to plan “b”, be that being back at home, or ready to swap out for another (fresh) battery.
I intend to put a piece of tape over the “battery remaining” icon on my CDU display AND on the voltmeter display because they are both superfluous. All I need is VOLT.
I have told you that I use two 52volt batteries. In the voltmeter link above, you might notice that “52v” is not among the battery options (DC12V 24V 36V 48V 60V 72V 84V). That's otay because the VOLT readout will still display correctly because they both are lithium-ion type of battery and that is all that matters, be it a “13”(48v), a “14”(52v), or a “16”(60v). Lithium-ion is lithium-ion.
As to where to splice into your electrical wiring, I just use the “headlight” function since I install custom strobe/flasher lights(USB rechargeable) on all of my daytime use-only ebike beasts. I just turn “on” the headlight function to activate the voltmeter. If you actually use your headlight, then it is a simple matter to splice into the two wires. Eazy Breezy.
An additional note about my two M2S ebike beasts: They both still utilize this tire set-up https://forums.electricbikereview.c...20-my-2018-kush-fat-tire-combo-recipes.26756/.
Yep, that's right.. I continue to use SIX tires total on each of my mighty M2S ebike steeds. I have been using this tire set-up since Sept. of 2018.. 34,000+ miles so far. NEVER a flat. I haven't carried any flat tire repair equipment since late 2018. 5+years. Go figure.
Just Imagine using my battery-mix formula on your ebike, with its 2 tires. VROOM!!! VROOM!!! Quick like a bunny.
Now, yet another item for you to ponder.
Though I am thoroughly smitten with my M2S ebike beasts, if you really want to check out my 48v/60v swapping experience, my suggestion is for you to buy this ebike https://wiredebikes.com/products/wired-freedom. It is the same ReentionDorado casing battery that my M2S ebikes use. You can even use the 48volt M2S battery on the 60volt WIRED ebike(s) without any problems. It won't have the oomph that the 60v'er has, but it won't be an embarrassment, either. Too many toyz. Too much fun.
Additionally, this WIRED ebike uses the same Hengtai(brand) 1,000W(?) Fat Tire E-bike motor, using metal gears, that came equipped on my 2021 ArielRider X52 beast-- the one that imploded at mile 16,383. Just some food for thought. By the way, in 2022, ArielRider finally wised up and switched over to the BaFangRetroBlade 1,000watt rear hub motor. It should prove to be just as bullet-proof as my two BaFang 750watt rear hub motors.
Finally, as always, I am constantly perusing the ebike world, on the alert for every ebike that might “best fit me/my product (batteries, etc.)inventory”. With there being so dang many brands out there to choose from, a decision is not easy to make.
I am especially impressed by this ebike: https://www.amazon.com/ANIIOKI-Electric-Bicycles-100Miles-Mountain/dp/B0C6SC3H4Q? Let's face it, this ebike really checks all the right boxes. The52v/60ah (60 gallon) battery unit is especially noteworthy. And the price-point option on any one of these lil' beasts just can't be denied, either. I expect it to be a huge seller. Plus, it should set the bar pretty high for competitors.
However, I believe that I have finally narrowed down my hunt to this particular M2S ebike, and yes, there is definitely something to be said for “brand loyalty”: https://ride.m2sbikes.com/products/all-go-cargo
There are a multitude on reasons I decided on this lil' M2S beast.
a) It comes equipped with a 48v/20ah(20gallon) Reention Dorado-casing battery. This battery is an exact fit for my 3 ebikes. Plus, I can use the two 52v/the two 60v units on it, too, as I see fit.
b). Its rear hub motor is the notoriously dependable BaFang 750watt unit-- the same as used on my 5 and 6 year old M2S ebikes.
c). It is a cargo ebike. I can install this item (as currently used on my2021 ArielRider X52 ebike beast) https://www.amazon.com/Architectural-Mailboxes-Capacity-Galvanized-Mailbox/dp/B0BP3RKVPW/ref=dp_fod_sccl_1/136-6257919-2372948?
Yes, it is an actual mailbox. I have been using this exact item on my 2021 ArielRider X52 for the past 2 years. It stores/fits my extra batteries perfectly. It also allowed me to raise the seat/saddle height to an acceptable height for my leg length (30 inches). The stock turd/log seat was 9” too low. Unacceptable.
ThisM2S cargo ebike, with its height adjustable seat post, takes care of that problem. However, I can easily install the mailbox on the rear cargo rack and can/will continue to use it to store extra batteries, etc.
d). Since the cargo ebike comes equipped with 20”x4” tires (KendaSport 20" x 4"), I will immediately swap them out for these puppies in size 16”x3” :https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/shinko-sr-241-series-tires?
Yes, I know that 16”x3” is nowhere close to 20”x4” tire size. But, one is “motorcycle” and the other is “bicycle” or “ebike”. These motorcycle tires are what I have been using on my 2021ArielRider X52. They currently have 8,000 miles on them. They are good for at least another 2,000 miles. True, they are heavier than the stock bicycle tires. However, concerning an ebike, you are not dealing with a “bicycle”. This lil'cargo ebike is an 80+ pound stealth beast. It also uses a rear hub motor. That means that you want to do everything possible to negate the possibility of having to remove/re-install that rear wheel.
Remember this:
20”x4” bicycle tire: good for 3,000 miles. And I can guarantee at least one flat tire along the way.
16”x3” motorcycle tire: good for 10,000+ miles. Flat tires? Not gonna happen.
Now, you might be thinking that dealing with wheel removal/tire swapping is not your thing. You want a bicycle shop to perform the deed. They will charge $50+per tire to do so.
Now factor in the cost of a new KENDA- brand replacement ebike tire at$50+ per tire. So, that is
$100 per wheel every 3,000miles (for a bicycle tire). OR,
$100 per wheel every 10,000miles (for a motorcycle tire).
Do the math, baby.
Here is what YOU need to do: you, the customer, furnish the motorcycle tire and the inner tube (very important--see below). All the bike shop has to do is install it. Sure, they will charge you a $50 per tire installation fee, but, what the hey..
And, if you want to save a few more $$$, you can deal with the front wheel tire/tube removal/installation yourself. It is easy-breezy-- just like a regular old school bicycle situation.
Now, here is the inner tube to use-- at least on the rear tire/wheel.
Use ONLY size16” and 2.75/3.0” and valve style TR-6. Ya gotta trust me on this.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/double-tough-inner-tubes?
Valve Stem Type: TR-6- Straight metal stem (8mm dia.)
Yes, this motorcycle tube is much more expensive than a bicycle tube. It is also thicker and less flexible than the run-of-the-mill bicycle tire.
By the way, motorcycle inner tubes are, due to their reduced flexibility, much more exacting in their size fit. Therefore, Use ONLY 16” x 2.75/3.0” and valve style TR-6.
As an added benefit, motorcycle inner tubes use a unique “fastening” system to assure that the metal threaded valve stem does NOT move/rotate within the wheel rim valve stem hole (via the use of 2 really thin threaded nuts). Remember that these tubes are actually designed for high power/huge torque motorcycles, usually weighting in excess of 300 pounds.
This may not seem like a factor when used on a lowly ebike. However, if you get into any reduced traction situation (sand/snow/ice/gravel, etc) the availability of excessive torque by these 750+watt rear hub motors will rip the rubber valve stem right off the bicycle inner tube. I actually had this situation occur while riding my ArielRider x52 in the snow. I was using a bicycle 20”x4” inner tube mounted on my SHINKO motorcycle tire at the time. So, once again, learn from MY mistakes.
You can even continue to use the original 20”x4” ebike/bicycle inner tube on the front wheel because, in the event (unlikely) of a flat, the wheel/tire removal is easy-breezy to deal with. By the way, if you also use SLIME, etc. Your chances of getting a permanent flat are pretty much nil.
I will also use this seat/saddle. I currently own 2. One is on my old school roadie bike https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805706928698.html? Good for the butt cheeks.
And, as a suspension seat post item, I will use this unique item https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805789846419.html?
I know it looks goofy as hell, but it sure works great.
Additionally, since I love to actually pedal my ebikes, I would swap out this original cargo ebike crankset combo: Prowheel 36T 170mm square taper chainring and crankset for this set-up: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804796545872.html?
I actually use this 58T combo on my ArielRider X52 and on my2019 M2S beast. Both are set up using a 46tooth chainring in addition to the 58t chainring. I have, in essence, a “manual” (manual being me) front derailleur-- a quick lifting of the chain from one chainring to the other, and I'm good to go.
Lots of hills? No problem. Use the 46t.
Flat and level? No problem. Use the 58t.
Pedal it like you stole it.
I will also install this item https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800442274337.html?
I have the 31.8mm x 620mm version and it is truly a beautiful handlebar. I had intended to install it onto my ArielRider X52, but it was 1”(25mm) too short to suit my purposes. However, for thisM2S cargo ebike, it will fit just fine and dandy.
While I'm on a roll, I may as well include this info, too:
WaterBottle holder:As you may already know, water bottle holder placement on the frame of any ebike can be quite a challenge, and on these moped-style frames, even more so. I stumbled upon this method of fastening 1 or 2units to pretty much any ebike.
I had already installed this handlebar height extender on my lil' X52 beast https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0983XY6VG/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4? and, as a side benefit, thanks to the multiple shims (3 or more), I was able install 2 of these water bottle holder brackets in place of 2 of those shims. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RBWC43B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1
Upon inspecting my 6 ebikes, every one of them has at least a couple of (spacer) shims under the stem. The aforementioned bottle holder bracket(s) are exactly the same width as those shims. Thus, the bracket will just replace the shim(s), as needed. You only need to verify that the side location of the bottle holder won't interfere with side-to-side movement (hit the top tube/bar) when you turn the handlebar.
Once you have the bracket(s) located in a good position, it is time to screw on/attach the water bottle holder to the skinny little bracket.
My ArielRider X52 has 2 of this item attached to the stem. Each of myM2S ebikes has one attached.
That's all for that item.
As you have probably noticed, I do prefer the 20” tire fat tire style of ebike to the larger 26” tire set-up. That is partially due to the simplicity of the 16” motorcycle tire factor, as well as the reality that the smaller tire ebike is more maneuverable in day-to-day usage.
I guess that's about it for my potential “next ebike toy”. At the very least, it will be good to go right from the outset of its most excellent adventure. I'll make a decision within the next few months.
As usual, I have ended up giving you way too much information. But, hopefully, some of it will prove to be useful to you. Even if you decide not to follow up on it, you can at least file it under “Good to Know” for possible use down the road in ebike world.
Later
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