Washington State's new ebike laws just passed.

[MrHyak]

Even the Netherlands — arguably the most bike-centric country in the world — is having problems now with bike riders going too fast for conditions on public bikeways.

Recent years have seen a sharp rise in related death and injuries — to the point that a 20 km/h bicycle speed limit is now being tested.

Skip to 2:08 for details:

Not clear from this coverage who all deserves the credit for this trend, but irresponsibly ridden ebikes and e-motos came up more than once — especially RadRover-style fat-tire ebikes and e-motos ridden by youngsters. Also not clear that a speed limit would be enforceable there for reasons explained in the video.

We're clearly dealing with a fundamental flaw in human nature here: Combining (a) power of any kind with (b) lack of accountability for how it's used rarely turns out well. Even in a country where everybody should know better by now.

Add immaturity and lack of training and experience to the mix, and you have a recipe for exactly this disaster in micromobility.

The only way to fight this fire is to remove (a) or (b) or both from the mix. But no easy way to do either now that cheap fast ebikes and e-motos have flooded markets everywhere.

I think 20kmh is a bit slow since its about the same as 12mph. Our trail/path speed limits here in the USA are usually 15mph, about the same as 24kmh and feels very responsible. Back in the 1970's and 80's as kids we had mini bikes and any time we were caught by the police on the roads they would take our mini bikes away and make our parents come down to the station to pick them up. It seemed to work pretty good, and kids were not buzzing all over the streets and sidewalks like the ebikes are today. Back then kids could only ride pedal bikes on the streets or sidewalks, no exceptions.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Back in the 1970's and 80's as kids we had mini bikes and any time we were caught by the police on the roads they would take our mini bikes away and make our parents come down to the station to pick them up. It seemed to work pretty good, and kids were not buzzing all over the streets and sidewalks like the ebikes are today.

Seems like law enforcement had forgotten how to do that by the time the e-cycle (ebike+e-moto) explosion hit here. Now Carlsbad and adjoining SoCal beach towns are doing it with some regularity, but it may be too little, too late. Many, many kids on illegal e-cycles here now.

Wondering if the litigation climate might have something to with the seemingly complete lack of enforcement early on. Can easily see affluent parents here threatening the city with lawsuits if little Johnny's Surron gets confiscated — especially if that puts the parents back in the school drop-off and pick-up lines.

 

[PedalUma]

Jealous? Envy? Are you f'n high?
Their reputation for being arrogant and inconsiderate is well deserved.
I've seen packs weave in and out of families with young children at high speed. They think if they say "on your left" it' somehow grants them permission to do high speed passes cutting as close as possible.
It can't be just me as these "stereotypes" keep resurfacing from people who have never met and from all parts of the country.
The fact that they dress like wanna_be's just adds to the D_bag stereotype
Not you? Great!. as it's not everyone.
But it's more than a rare occurrence or a few bad apples by far...and much more hazardous than anyone on an eBike in my experience.

No one needs a Halloween Cyclist Costume as a weekend cyclist to ride a bike. Use what is comfortable for the ride, such as cotton and wool, and is most appropriate for your destination. Ride to do things in daily life. Lycra stinks quickly. Get a good air flow saddle works better than sweaty ball bearing, constricted, adult diaper pants. Make it fun. And part of a real daily riding lifestyle is to get places and do things everyday on a bike that can haul stuff. It is better to do 100k during the week on an everyday bike, than 100k on a weekend on a bike that is practically useless as transportation.. The Lycra guys ride their bikes 80 miles then drive four blocks for a six-pack. Silly.

 

[LandoftheGiants]

So just for clarity you're OK with any biker high speed weaving past all including the elderly and families with young kids...
No wonder you have no problems.

Yes it's the speed that's the problem, and the sense of entitlement. I call them racers because that is what they are, once you rebrand them roadies, which was a marketing ploy to increase sales because girls typically don't like to race, then you obfuscate their purpose and the purpose of most who ride them. They are great bikes, for racing, but suburban streets and bikeways are not racetracks. The sense of entitlement I have spoken of here before and it comes out in the 'Group' behavior. Solo riders on race bikes are from my experience very considerate, they have to be, they are one fragile bike in a sea of cars. But when the Group rides it's like they become outlaws, a law unto themselves. I've been forked and verbally abused by riders for passing too close but as soon as a red light appears they are brushing my mirrors at speed. Double standards don't sit well with me.

I have a few motorcycles and one is a race bike, RR. But I don't race through the traffic on it though, I just cruise like on my other bikes. When I'm out alone in the hills though, that's another matter. It's the main reason I don't ride with groups on similar bikes, they are always going faster than prudent for the road conditions and in a line pass cars as though nothing is coming the other way! It becomes a race for them, at least for the ones on sport bikes. There is no solution for the issues caused by the racer pack, the training ride, where slowing down is not acceptable. It's just another facet of everyday life in the city that people have to contend with it but the average pedestrian or motorist isn't going to stop what they are doing and stand back so they don't interfere with the race. Like stopping to allow 30 riders to blow a stop sign in a side street and pour out into my path. That's a very common thing in the city I came from. So common the cops began staking out the signs to issue tickets. So if someone wants to ride a racer and dress in the typical racer outfit, then they have to expect some angst from the public at large simply because of the stereotyping. Riders have been injured and killed on the road because of built up angst, the videos are endless, deliberate targeting. Not of cyclists, of racers.

 

[kevinmccune]

Humans are tribal creatures. Throughout most of history, anybody not in your tribe was less than human and could / should be killed. We're trying to get past that, with varying degrees of success. Making fun of the other tribe is human nature, and better than actual fighting. Me, as a member of the blue jeans / loose natural fiber tribe, I may poke good natured fun at the spandex tribe, and I don't get upset if somebody pokes fun of me as barefoot hippie freak. (I learned my lesson years ago about cycling barefoot, but that's another story.)

In many cases appearance is associated with behavior, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly... but most stereotypes have at least some basis in fact.

Hikers also divide between the natural and spandex tribes. In the sport flying world, civilian pilots who choose to wear military style flight suits get kidded. Swimmers make fun of speedo wearers (ok, for good reason in many cases ). Skiers vs snowboarders, canoeists vs kayakers. Rock vs hip-hop vs country. And of course manual vs ebikes. The list goes on.

yeah Speedos( not in Aussie land here) at times show too much frontage and crackage,do make good supporters

So I have to eat my words when I said I don't see too many street ninjas. My work apartment is less than a mile from the office and I usually walk. The last week or so I have seen this dude on a fat tire ebike, not pedaling, dark clothes, a full face helmet and no lights, zip down the street at 30+ mph hour and run right through the red light of the first major street I have to cross. I have seen him run the light at least twice, including this morning.

what gets me is the "you tuber" bike reviewer burning through stop signs and being reckless.

 

[kevinmccune]

My SIL is a retired teacher. She struggled getting along with her peers at several schools. Who was most likely the problem.

An Ebiker continually has issues with roadies. Who is most likely the problem?

'the critter in the mirror"

 

[opimax]

I ride the Sliver Comet Trail just west of Atlanta . It is a MUP. Rarely do I see enough people to slow down and surprisingly wish there were more people, to have around for safety…most of the time. As I tell many people I don’t get out often meaning ride different trails . When I read these stories of how crowds many of these other trails are on a regular basis it takes moment to register it is different elsewhere. Less then high powered emotos on the trail I see, hear or the worst SMELL gas vehicles which don’t belong even not speeding they still just stink more than you would think and it seems it never the windy day lol.

i also dont understand the logic of no throttle on a class 3 at 20mph. Isn’t speed the real,question? 5 of my fleet of 7 are old style class 3, the other 2 are the small Jetson Bolts that lie and say the can make 15.5mph mainly for the grand kids

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

i also dont understand the logic of no throttle on a class 3 at 20mph.

California law has always said that Class 3 ebikes can't have throttles. And I believe national class definitions say the same.

However, that distinction is totally ignored by manufacturers and dealers alike here in coastal SoCal. And from what I see on the Web, pretty much everywhere else, too.

My wife's 50 lb 750W hub-drive cruiser (Velotric Breeze) was sold as a "Class 3" but came with a throttle anyway. Fortunately, we could remove it if necessary, as she no longer uses it thanks to Velotric's SensorSwap feature.

My 38 lb 240W mid-drive is a true Class 3 — no throttle, and no real need on this bike. I can get it up to 25 mph on flat, smooth pavement in still air with assist alone (though admittedly not for long, as I'm not a particularly strong rider). Still, fast enough for me.

That said, my old 70 lb 500W hub-drive commuter taught me that a progressive thumb throttle has many valuable uses besides getting out of pedaling. Even though I always pedal with exertion, that heavy bike was vastly better with a throttle there when you need it. Its throttle got used pretty often, but rarely for more than a few seconds at time.

This commuter was sold as a "Class 2" but came with no class sticker. Throttle power cut out at 20 mph, as required for Class 2. But the display allows anyone to reprogram the bike for assist to 36 mph! This would put the bike far outside the class system. All you need is an easily found passcode.

Many ebikes are now sold with the class just a setting on the display. From an enforcement perspective, this renders the whole class system meaningless.

 

[RunForTheHills]

In California, class 3 ebikes can't have a throttle. But many states allow a throttle that works up to 20 mph. I should be easy enough to remove the throttle if the bike came with one and you want to be compliant.

 

[MrHyak]

California law has always said that Class 3 ebikes can't have throttles. And I believe national class definitions say the same.

However, that distinction is totally ignored by manufacturers and dealers alike here in coastal SoCal. And from what I see on the Web, pretty much everywhere else, too.

My wife's 50 lb 750W hub-drive cruiser (Velotric Breeze) was sold as a "Class 3" but came with a throttle anyway. Fortunately, we could remove it if necessary, as she no longer uses it thanks to Velotric's SensorSwap feature.

My 38 lb 240W mid-drive is a true Class 3 — no throttle, and no real need on this bike. I can get it up to 25 mph on flat, smooth pavement in still air with assist alone (though admittedly not for long, as I'm not a particularly strong rider). Still, fast enough for me.

That said, my old 70 lb 500W hub-drive commuter taught me that a progressive thumb throttle has many valuable uses besides getting out of pedaling. Even though I always pedal with exertion, that heavy bike was vastly better with a throttle there when you need it. Its throttle got used pretty often, but rarely for more than a few seconds at time.

This commuter was sold as a "Class 2" but came with no class sticker. Throttle power cut out at 20 mph, as required for Class 2. But the display allows anyone to reprogram the bike for assist to 36 mph! This would put the bike far outside the class system. All you need is an easily found passcode.

Many ebikes are now sold with the class just a setting on the display. From an enforcement perspective, this renders the whole class system meaningless.

My first fat tire cruiser 750W hub drive I bought in 1999 didn't have limits and I could pedal hard and get it up to 37mph. My mid drive full suspension 1000w cuts out at 20mph so anything beyond that is on me and I really don't need anything more. I'm sure I could reprogram my mid drive but I really have no reason to. It all depends on who you put behind the bars on these bikes. Kids always want to go fast so as long as kids are riding them there are going to be issues.........its just the way it is. If I was still 15 I'm sure I'd be pushing the limits too. I used to get into trouble on my dirt bike all the time riding through neighborhoods to get to the motorcycle hills.

 

[PedalUma]

The Aventon Adventure M allows for a throttle to be purchased, not included with the bike. It can be set-up to be Class 1, Class 2, or Class 3. But not on the same ride.

 

[opimax]

Velotric has a different software limitations for bikes sold to Ca address to follow their laws. Still don’t see why a class 3 cannot have a throttle while a class 2 does, is not the concern 28 vs 20? What does a throttle do at 20 on different bikes? Will an area which allows a new class 3 not allow a class 2?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Velotric has a different software limitations for bikes sold to Ca address to follow their laws.

Maybe now, but that certainly wasn't the case when we bought our Velotric Breeze 1 in Carlbad, CA in 2025.

 

[opimax]

Yes now. I was very close to purchasing a Summit 2 but wasn’t happy with the final gear ration causing a higher cadence in top gear. I would continually shift to 1 more gear that wasn’t there on my test rides. I went to a Velotric sponsored day at the local bike shop and worked with a few reps and local mechanics trying to find out if either i could put in an 11 tooth in the rear or larger chain ring up front to change this. They could not find a way/parts/space to do this and I ended up purchasing an Aventon Level 4 REC.

At this event I spoke to rep about the Ca law and it was how they locked choices that would violate Ca version of the bike in software tuning of the bike . If you lived elsewhere you could unlock more choices. It was defaulting to Ca laws and once registered to the owner you can modify the operation in the software. I was concerned also if Velotric had the ability to change this using OTA programming if I were to visit Ca and was told no and it was shipping/purchasing address only.

i wish my bike could be unlocked and hit higher speeds but I am happy I can hold 28 for extended periods not just hit while struggling.

do you know if it is possible to set the throttle to 28 in non Ca states ? Still only 28

 

[gromike]

20mph on throttle is the max speed nationally. If your doing 28mph with motor assist your "legal" ebike does not have a throttle.

 

[opimax]

sorry don’t follow, not being smart . If I have the old class 3 I can throttle to 20 and then have to pedal to 28. I don’t understand why it matters how I got to 20 if I am continuing to 28. Also a bike that has a cadence sensor can ghost pedal which is very similar to throttle imho to 28.

to me is just speed to worry about, hard to argue how you get there

fyi I have bikes with and without throttles and use them at most 3% when I ride these bikes…or when I need to get home from a fall and can’t pedal , I think 3 times, 12 miles , 35 miles and I forget the other time. Safety feature for me, getting older

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

If I have the old class 3 I can throttle to 20 and then have to pedal to 28.

A bike with pedal assist to 28 mph AND a throttle isn't legally a Class 3 and never was. It's not even a legal ebike in the sense below. The manufacturer or dealer may have called it a Class 3 or said it was legal, but that doesn't make it so.

Like it or not, the official class descriptions written into law are there to spell out the 3 specific kinds of electric bike legally entitled to a very specific legal privilege — namely, to operate legally on public infrastructure without license, registration, or insurance.

Bikes that don't fit any of the official class descriptions technically don't have that privilege. Surrons and other e-motos are extreme examples, and here in coastal SoCal, enforcement is finally using that fact to get these non-ebikes off public infrastructure.

 

[kevinmccune]

I ride the Sliver Comet Trail just west of Atlanta . It is a MUP. Rarely do I see enough people to slow down and surprisingly wish there were more people, to have around for safety…most of the time. As I tell many people I don’t get out often meaning ride different trails . When I read these stories of how crowds many of these other trails are on a regular basis it takes moment to register it is different elsewhere. Less then high powered emotos on the trail I see, hear or the worst SMELL gas vehicles which don’t belong even not speeding they still just stink more than you would think and it seems it never the windy day lol.

i also dont understand the logic of no throttle on a class 3 at 20mph. Isn’t speed the real,question? 5 of my fleet of 7 are old style class 3, the other 2 are the small Jetson Bolts that lie and say the can make 15.5mph mainly for the grand kids

that's the best they could come up with!

 

[kevinmccune]

A bike with pedal assist to 28 mph AND a throttle isn't legally a Class 3 and never was. It's not even a legal ebike in the sense below. The manufacturer or dealer may have called it a Class 3 or said it was legal, but that doesn't make it so.

Like it or not, the official class descriptions written into law are there to spell out the 3 specific kinds of electric bike legally entitled to a very specific legal privilege — namely, to operate legally on public infrastructure without license, registration, or insurance.

Bikes that don't fit any of the official class descriptions technically don't have that privilege. Surrons and other e-motos are extreme examples, and here in coastal SoCal, enforcement is finally using that fact to get these non-ebikes off public infrastructure.

are they actually class 4,I inadvertently made a 34 mph fattie one time,(of course He loves it)

 

[stompandgo]

Every single motor vehicle sold today in the US can break the speed limit, by a lot. Every single one of them requires a license, registration, and insurance. Every single one of them is subject to speed enforcement, and speed enforcement is common. When motor vehicles have collisions with other motor vehicles, people, and other living or non-living things, fault is determined (or overridden in no-fault states) and the operator may or may not be subject to fines, increased premiums, and even civil or criminal charges. Driving recklessly or irresponsibly is penalized. The violation can have nothing to do with speed, as well.

Compare that to bicycles. Any and all bicycles. It is extremely rare that a bicycle versus anything collision is referred to anything but an "accident". No requirement for operator responsibility, even in situations when motor vehicles hit and kill bicycle operators. Every incident is deemed an "accident". Sure, the 8 year old riding their Guardian BMX probably isn't going to kill or maim anything other than a chipmunk, but bicycles, with and without a motor, are capable of killing or maiming people. It's not very common, but it does happen. Now, take that bicycle, and add a 500w, 750w, 1000w, even 2,000w motor or motors to it. Put increasing amounts of them on public streets, sidewalks, and shared paths. Require no operator license, no registration, no insurance. Have no practical laws governing the ownership and operation of them, with the only recourse to an "accident" victim be the civil court. Without specific and well defined laws governing them, reckless operation is common, and enforcement is almost non-existent. Every bicycle is capable of maiming or killing a human, but the odds go through the roof when a motor or motors are added.

The Class defined e-bikes are living in a loophole, alongside the non-class bikes, electric scooters, skateboards, Segways, e-motorbikes, and all the rest. The Feds aren't interested, so it's up to the states to create a totally unenforceable, inconsistent, short-sighted set of laws that govern a small portion of the loophole vehicles. Meanwhile, there are 15-25 million of them in the US, and growing daily.

I am not a big fan of restrictive laws. I much prefer penalties for lack of responsibility. In this situation, we have neither, and what we will get in the end is not going to solve the problem because nobody is willing to think the whole situation through.