Proprietary Bikes and the Right to Repair

[PedalUma]

John Deere owners will get the right to repair their own equipment under a new FTC settlement

John Deere owners should soon feel free to fix their own machines. The Federal Trade Commission and several state attorneys general have secured a “right to repair” settlement with farming equipment company Deere & Co., known as John Deere.

apnews.com

 

[spokewrench]

I think it was in 2016 that my BIL told me that his big diesel JD would shut off when he attempted some necessary action, maybe raising the scoop. He was supposed to hire a company with a big truck and trailer to haul it to the dealer. He asked me to troubleshoot. I asked if he had a schematic. He said he had the shop manual on CD. He was away when I went over there. Based on what did and didn't work, the schematic pointed to a certain relay, but I didn't know how to open the panels to look for the board with the relay. He showed me when he returned. The coil was getting voltage but the contacts weren't closing. I assured him that the relay was the problem. The dealer had it in stock, and it was pretty cheap.

He's hated me ever since, for knowing what he didn't know about a tractor he'd bought.

 

[PCeBiker]

I owned a 1985 Mazda 626 that I bought in the early 90's.

I went to the Mazda dealership to purchase the Mazda service manual that cost me over $100 at the time.
The guy at the dealership said that I was lucky that they could sell it to me. It was not available for sale to the public until a year earlier.

It was FULL of all kinds of secret proprietary information.
It saved me thousands of dollars in repair costs.

There was a car out years ago, a Ford I think? Where there was a "special" electronic box somewhere on the car.
Technicians would call headquarters asking what the box was. They were told "None of your business. Don't touch it"

Eventually there was huge car crash where somebody was killed.
The offending driver claimed to be driving 30 mph.

The car company was forced by the courts to reveal the speed of the vehicle at the time of the crash.
The car was going WAY Over the speed limit at the time of impact.

The little black box was recording Everywhere the vehicle had been along with all the speeds the vehicle had ever been driven.

 

[PedalUma]

I hope that the John Deere decision will apply to bikes, particularly eBikes. I can go to the auto parts store and buy any brand of battery I want. I can buy an alternator or fuel pump from several makers. I can install the new alternator myself without a dealer. A woman who is a friend of a friend wanted to buy a never ridden pandemic era bike today. It looks beautiful. The thing is the proprietary battery and controller are not available from any source. I see that kind of thing again and again. It is planned obsolescence with no right to repair.

 

[Chazmo]

I hope that the John Deere decision will apply to bikes, particularly eBikes. I can go to the auto parts store and buy any brand of battery I want. I can buy an alternator or fuel pump from several makers. I can install the new alternator myself without a dealer. A woman who is a friend of a friend wanted to buy a never ridden pandemic era bike today. It looks beautiful. The thing is the proprietary battery and controller are not available from any source. I see that kind of thing again and again. It is planned obsolescence with no right to repair.

Well, it’s also compounded by the fact that many of these ebike companies are teetering on the edge or already gone. I would argue that while I’m sure it’s partly planned obsolescence, it’s also because there is little/no standardization in the designs or protocols of the components.

 

[PCeBiker]

The thing is the proprietary battery and controller are not available from any source.

If it were me, I'd just gut the thing and rebuild it with a new controller, display and BMS in the battery pack.

Ditch the proprietary stuff, but maybe reuse the connectors to help keep things cleaner looking.

I installed a couple car stereos the same way.
Start from the ground up and do a completely separate install, not using any of the cars original wiring.
(It needed to be upgraded to 100 amp service anyway.)

Way easier to keep track of the wiring.

 

[PCeBiker]

Well, it’s also compounded by the fact that many of these ebike companies are teetering on the edge or already gone.

It'd be nice if they could release schematics of their proprietary wiring and programing.

 

[PCeBiker]

Those proprietary handshakes can be quite complex,..

 

[PedalUma]

I sent her to the local Aventon dealer. She was looking on FBMP at a six-year-old bike with the old style ghost pedal PAS and a 350W hub. A new one has 750W and a torque sensor that can be turned on or off. She will have a two-year warranty, local dealer support, a UL battery, and can finance most of it. What she saves on crosstown gas each month will pay it off in under nine-months. And it weighs 45 pounds, not 70.

 

[spokewrench]

it’s also because there is little/no standardization in the designs or protocols of the components.

I'd love to see crosshead screws outlawed. With Allen keys, you have ISO or ANSI specs, and it seems an L with a ball end will do everything better than a crosshead screwdriver.

When I see a crosshead, I don't know what I'm looking at. I try my 7" Klein. If that doesn't work, I try my 8" Craftsman. One of them usually works. Yesterday, when I needed to tighten the clamp on my Shimano shifter, neither worked. I tried another, a Klein with switchable heads. It fit perfectly.

 

[PedalUma]

crosshead screws

I use countersunk stainless Phillips head M5 .8 screws to mount batteries, particularly on the water bottle look ones. That way the heads are flush and do not scratch the battery when removing it from the bike. Most motors are held together with torx screws but some are held together with Alan heads. In the last month two motors were brought to me with stripped heads after someone tried to open them with the wrong tool. That could also use some standardization. Now I check in front of the customer before it comes into the shop. I do not want a botched home job after a guy saw a video becoming my problem.

 

[spokewrench]

Was it Phillips? To me, Pozidriv and JIS screws and drivers look the same as Phillips. Phillips has ANSI and ISO specs, as does Pozidriv. The easiest way for me to tell the difference is to take the time to try screwdrivers. As this was a Japanese shifter, the screw was probably JIS.

With a hex socket, I get it right the first time, and I get the convenience of the ball end except for torquing and breaking loose.

https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Screws-Countersunk-Stainless-Thread/dp/B0GT5YM7WR

They make L keys for torx. If I encountered torx often, I'd get a set.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I just buy bit sets for the screws I don't encounter often.

 

[PedalUma]

I just buy bit sets for the screws I don't encounter often.

The security Torx are cool as are the other security bits. That is a Show Us a Tool thing. It also fits with the proprietary bikes that do not want to let you in to lube gears in a motor or to replace an automotive fuse inside a controller.

 

[spokewrench]

I just buy bit sets for the screws I don't encounter often.

Me too, but then I spend time finding one that fits. Is that a dozen crosshead bits?

 

[spokewrench]

The security Torx are cool as are the other security bits. That is a Show Us a Tool thing. It also fits with the proprietary bikes that do not want to let you in to lube gears in a motor or to replace an automotive fuse inside a controller.

In 2018 I installed an SSD in a Mac Mini. Apple figured they lost money every time someone upgraded instead paying their prices for a bigger drive or more memory. I bought an assortment of 64 tiny bits to get the security torx I needed. Now when one of those bits might help me, it takes time to discover the right one. At least once the set fell on the floor. That's a reason to love Allen keys the meet specs.

 

[RunForTheHills]

Me too, but then I spend time finding one that fits. Is that a dozen crosshead bits?

There are only four philips in the set. It is a security bit set as @PedalUma pointed out. I have this set, but also a few others.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JHK4LY5?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_4&th=1

 

[spokewrench]

There are only four philips in the set. It is a security bit set as @PedalUma pointed out. I have this set, but also a few others.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JHK4LY5?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_4&th=1

No Pozidriv? No JIS? PZ is common, and I could have used a JIS bit to tighten my shifter. Only hex sockets should be allowed!

 

[RunForTheHills]

I have full sized Vessel brand JIS screwdrivers. I don't think I have any Pozidriv and I can't recall needing one.

 

[Gionnirocket]

It seems some find ways to struggle with even with the simplest of tasks. .

I personally prefer 1/4" socket bits as I have a variety of small/ large ratchet handles and extensions for right angle approaches.
With the common sizes I have screw driver handled tools as well. Sometimes socket bits are too fat to fit in a screws recessed access hole.