Another class needed?

[mschwett]

Downhill trails are not really indicative of anything. They are almost always directional, on private land and only used by people who know exactly what’s going on.

yes, exactly. the whole “but any bike can go fast downhill” is a ridiculous red herring - the quantities of bikes going down big hills is inherently self limiting because it’s a lot of work to ride that same bike UP the hill and requires a pretty significant commitment to do so frequently. study after study shows the average speed of a non-e-cyclist is in the 15mph range. speeds way outside the 10-20mph range of most urban cycling requires different infrastructure and different rules. sidewalks are separated from bike lanes which are (ideally) separated from automobile lanes….

 

[m@Robertson]

This link bears repeating. I think he gets it exactly right in terms of speed differentials, how much they matter and how much all of this matters.

Particularly, he gets absolutely right the reasons so many people get it wrong with respect to ebikes and trails. I've cue'd up the video to that exact conclusion section, since its almost 10 minutes in. Item 2 of his 3 is easily the biggest issue overall and we see this attitude throughout even this forum; supposedly populated by the already-converted.

 

[mschwett]

This link bears repeating. I think he gets it exactly right in terms of speed differentials, how much they matter and how much all of this matters.

Particularly, he gets absolutely right the reasons so many people get it wrong with respect to ebikes and trails. I've cue'd up the video to that exact conclusion section, since its almost 10 minutes in. Item 2 of his 3 is easily the biggest issue overall and we see this attitude throughout even this forum; supposedly populated by the already-converted.

i'm not sure if that was directed at me, but trails are a completely different animal which i have no opinion on, not being a frequent user. the issues there are completely recreational and ecological impact has to be considered, hopefully by actual scientists and not NIMBYs or YIMBYs.

 

[m@Robertson]

i'm not sure if that was directed at me, but trails are a completely different animal which i have no opinion on, not being a frequent user. the issues there are completely recreational and ecological impact has to be considered, hopefully by actual scientists and not NIMBYs or YIMBYs.

No not really, but ... what impact, exactly? What measured impact? Not the fears given voice about how there just has to be some damage, but actual results? Its been long enough that it has been studied locally. I have seen some test periods - one in Colorado a few years back in particular - where the fears of both rider conflict and trail damage were found to be nonexistent during a trial period allowing ebikes. So... what studies? Its time enough to leave the hand-wringing behind and stick to only posting facts. If they exist they should be readily available to point to.

That video showing actual use - something we get far too little of versus lots of words on screens and pages - did a pretty good job of plainly, clearly illustrating how little difference there is in usage (environmental effect) from one type to the other. In particular the video of what a motorcycle does to a trail and how that compares to an ebike; making it abundantly clear the apples/oranges nature of the comparison.

 

[jabberwocky]

This link bears repeating. I think he gets it exactly right in terms of speed differentials, how much they matter and how much all of this matters.

Particularly, he gets absolutely right the reasons so many people get it wrong with respect to ebikes and trails. I've cue'd up the video to that exact conclusion section, since its almost 10 minutes in. Item 2 of his 3 is easily the biggest issue overall and we see this attitude throughout even this forum; supposedly populated by the already-converted.

Great vid, matches my experience very closely. Basically no difference between my normal trail bike and my eMTB downhill, large difference on steep climbs (with the caveat that the eMTB still isn't going very fast), biggest difference on gentle grindy climbs and long flat sections where you can max the assist.

No not really, but ... what impact, exactly? What measured impact? Not the fears given voice about how there just has to be some damage, but actual results? Its been long enough that it has been studied locally. I have seen some test periods - one in Colorado a few years back in particular - where the fears of both rider conflict and trail damage were found to be nonexistent during a trial period allowing ebikes. So... what studies? Its time enough to leave the hand-wringing behind and stick to only posting facts. If they exist they should be readily available to point to.

That video showing actual use - something we get far too little of versus lots of words on screens and pages - did a pretty good job of plainly, clearly illustrating how little difference there is in usage (environmental effect) from one type to the other. In particular the video of what a motorcycle does to a trail and how that compares to an ebike; making it abundantly clear the apples/oranges nature of the comparison.

Trail impact is one of those controversial things that gets argued about endlessly in the trail advocacy world. IMBA has commissioned some studies that show mountainbikers are about the same impact as hikers and less than equestrians. I would expect low speed ebikes to be similar. But there isn't a ton of data out there so land managers sometimes go with their gut.

The main thing mountainbikers have going for them on that front is they tend to be by far the most knowledgeable group about sustainable trail design, and (at least in my area) the most capable of getting volunteers out to build and maintain trail. IMBA literally wrote the book on sustainable trail design. My local IMBA affiliate does more than 10,000 man-hours of trail work per year. Land managers respect and listen to them. I'm fortunate that they have largely been supportive of eMTB access.

 

[m@Robertson]

The only actual study I have found was actually done by IMBA. It was in 2015 back when they were still anti-emtb. If you read the study, in the opening abstract they commit a rather telling sin in that they specify their pre-existing expectations for results. Something a proper researcher is never supposed to do. To their credit though, they admit that ebike trail damage is effectively the same for mtb's and emtbs.

Environmental Impacts from Mtn Bicycles, Electric Mtn Bicycles, & Motorcycles - American Trails

Our Mission is to advance the development of diverse, high quality trails and greenways. Through collaboration, education, funding, and communication, we help raise the value of trails.

www.americantrails.org

The first part of the Study's Conclusion, with emphasis mine:

This study found that the impacts from Class 1 eMTBs and traditional mountain bicycles were not significantly different, while motorcycles led to much greater soil displacement and erosion. Observations suggest that Class 1 eMTBs may lead to more displacement under certain trail conditions. More research is needed before conclusions can be drawn regarding the environmental impacts of Class 1 eMTBs as compared with traditional mountain bicycles.

I am highlighting the text in red as that sentence and the one that follows it are what I consider to be sour grapes. The study did not find what they wanted at the time so they had to toss in another two cents.

However, two years later in 2017 IMBA changed their negative position on Class 1 ebikes.

 

[jabberwocky]

The only actual study I have found was actually done by IMBA. It was in 2015 back when they were still anti-emtb. If you read the study, in the opening abstract they commit a rather telling sin in that they specify their pre-existing expectations for results. Something a proper researcher is never supposed to do. To their credit though, they admit that ebike trail damage is effectively the same for mtb's and emtbs.

Honestly, thats pretty mild. IMBA is half grassroots advocacy and half industry association, and a lot of their industry partners are companies like REI which lean much heavier to hikers than mountainbikers. Its created some weird opinions at times. I personally think IMBA frequently leans too heavily towards appeasing other user groups than actually advocating for mountainbikers, but thats just, like, my opinion man. Even their about face on class 1s likely came about because their corporate partners leaned on them.

On the list of things about IMBA that piss me off its somewhere in the middle. Their backstabbing of the STC in congress is still at the top. Been half a decade and I'm still really grumpy about that.

 

[tomjasz]

like REI which lean much heavier to hikers than mountainbikers.

Given REI's commitment to eBikes, now 33 models, I expect them to be shifting their focus.