What's your opinion on the "Idaho Stop" law?

[m@Robertson]

This was passed into law in CA by the legislature but our jackass governor vetoed it. Its a huge safety improvement for the cyclist, and as noted, it just codifies what cyclists do anyway. The last time I read up on the IS one of the things that was pointed out is practicing it gets cyclists out of intersections faster, which has a proven effect of decreasing accidents and injuries. If you aren't in the intersection you can't get hit by a car passing thru it and over top of you.

 

[rayray]

As of September, 2022 (if memory serves), it has been legal here in Washington State to treat stop signs as yields. Of course, it’s on the cyclist to be certain the roadway is clear. I take advantage of it regularly, and appreciate not having to stop/start.

I’ve had one close call, but it was a very unusual situation; I was on a multi-use path, which a) ran parallel to a roadway and b) crossed the entry to a parking lot, with a stop sign on the bike path at that point. What I didn’t notice was the fact that a car coming up behind me on that parallel roadway had a green light, rather than a stop sign. He proceeded to turn right on that green light to enter the parking lot, just as I was riding through the stop sign. Fortunately, I wasn’t riding too fast (because I was riding through a stop sign!) and was able to stop safely. We did have an interesting discussion though. Seems not only did I fail to yield (oops, but did I?…remember, he was turning across a crosswalk/multi-use path, and I was at a stop sign, not a signal), but he was convinced that the whole stop/yield thing was a fabrication and I was a complete idiot. Being a much smaller and much older individual, and uncertain as to the traffic law in this situation, I rode away before he completely lost it. I did learn to stop at that particular sign though.

 

[tomjasz]

Stop signs are for sissies.

Almost true.

 

[mschwett]

Tell that to all the pedestrians these cyclists always almost run over. The disdain of cyclists by other road users is not unfounded. And as a law-abiding cyclist, I hate being grouped with these lawbreakers.

data, please. no anecdotes.

how many pedestrians have been injured by cyclists? i've heard of one or two cases in the heavily cycled county i live in, with zero deaths or permanent injury. cars have killed 262 people in the last 9 years in that same county, including more than a few cyclists. even taking into account that the mode share for private automobiles is about 10x higher than cycling (around 40-50% of trips here are by private car), that makes cyclists infinitely less likely to kill someone than automobiles. on what is this "disdain" founded? it's OK to kill people in your SUV but not OK to roll behind a pedestrian?

when nobody is around, i run both stop signs and red lights. if anyone is around (meaning they might remotely be able to get to the intersection before i do) i stop. if a pedestrian is IN the intersection already, i may run the stop sign but ONLY if i can go behind them. i have yet to see a human suddenly jump backwards 10 feet while walking forward, although i suppose an olympic gymnast could do it.

 

[Taylor57]

The only close calls I have had while cycling have been with automobiles-humans not paying attention while driving. I drive my bike very defensively and passively. I have had no problems with pedestrians-just distracted drivers...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

data, please. no anecdotes.

Not the United States but there are quite interesting stats for Poland (a country of population 37,766,327 in 2022):

"In 2022, cyclists participated in 3,685 road accidents, during which 170 cyclists were killed and 3,356 were injured (of which 3,344 were the riders and 12 were the passengers).
[...]
In 2022, cyclists contributed to 1,304 accidents during which 72 people were killed and 1,286 people experienced bodily harm.

The most frequent reasons of accidents caused by cyclist were:

• Not yielding - 394 cases
• Inappropriate speed - 204 cases
• Inappropriate cornering - 137 cases
• Inappropriate behaviour towards pedestrians - 98 cases
• Inappropriate overtaking - 94 cases."

Source: The HQ of the Polish Police.

The things are made even more complicated because the Polish cyclist has no right-of-way on bike path crossing with the road in most of cases (it is different for Denmark or the Netherlands!)
----------
The Idaho Law? I learned about it in my beginnings on the EBR Fora and liked the concept. I apply these rules when the traffic is minimal, it is a quiet area (so I can hear other vehicles), and the visibility is perfect. For instance, there might be a railway crossing with open barriers, blank STOP lights, and perfect visibility of the railroad tracks for a kilometre each side. I simply slow down, take a careful look around and then cross the tracks without stopping.

I usually respect the red light, although there are some exceptions. Take a kilometres long urban bike path with small crossings for the cars to leave/get into the parking lot. There may be a red light for cyclists there. If there is zero traffic around, I slow down very much, carefully look around and if there is no vehicle, I pass the crossing under the red light.

The bike-crossing across the road is the most dangerous place here. If in any doubt, I will stop before the crossing to take a long look both sides! It is because many drivers would yield the cyclist (as if it were a pedestrian zebra) but most even do not slow down there!

 

[mschwett]

Not the United States but there are quite interesting stats for Poland (a country of population 37,766,327 in 2022):

"In 2022, cyclists participated in 3,685 road accidents, during which 170 cyclists were killed and 3,356 were injured (of which 3,344 were the riders and 12 were the passengers).
[...]
In 2022, cyclists contributed to 1,304 accidents during which 72 people were killed and 1,286 people experienced bodily harm.

The most frequent reasons of accidents caused by cyclist were:

• Not yielding - 394 cases
• Inappropriate speed - 204 cases
• Inappropriate cornering - 137 cases
• Inappropriate behaviour towards pedestrians - 98 cases
• Inappropriate overtaking - 94 cases."

Source: The HQ of the Polish Police.

The things are made even more complicated because the Polish cyclist has no right-of-way on bike path crossing with the road in most of cases (it is different for Denmark or the Netherlands!)
----------
The Idaho Law? I learned about it in my beginnings on the EBR Fora and liked the concept. I apply these rules when the traffic is minimal, it is a quiet area (so I can hear other vehicles), and the visibility is perfect. For instance, there might be a railway crossing with open barriers, blank STOP lights, and perfect visibility of the railroad tracks for a kilometre each side. I simply slow down, take a careful look around and then cross the tracks without stopping.

I usually respect the red light, although there are some exceptions. Take a kilometres long urban bike path with small crossings for the cars to leave/get into the parking lot. There may be a red light for cyclists there. If there is zero traffic around, I slow down very much, carefully look around and if there is no vehicle, I pass the crossing under the red light.

The bike-crossing across the road is the most dangerous place here. If in any doubt, I will stop before the crossing to take a long look both sides! It is because many drivers would yield the cyclist (as if it were a pedestrian zebra) but most even do not slow down there!

that’s interesting. i wonder if any of those 98 cases of “inappropriate behavior towards pedestrians” resulted in death or serious injury. 72/1304 of the total suggests possibly as many as 5! but it’s more likely that the deaths were the cyclist themselves when a vehicle was involved, but they were at fault. does the data specify?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i wonder if any of those 98 cases of “inappropriate behavior towards pedestrians” resulted in death or serious injury

I'm sure I could see some data related to that but could not look them up now. There certainly were several death cases and many more injuries of pedestrians. Now, let me go anecdotal:

I'm getting the news to my smartphone. One night, I could see such statistics in the news and I started wondering how probable riding into a pedestrian was. The next evening, I set off for my usual small grocery shopping ride; a part of my route involves an unlit MUP. Even if the lighting on my Vado SL is decent, it is certainly not very strong, just adequate. At some place, I abruptly pressed both brake levers, making my bike stop sharply! It was because there was a couple of "bat people" -- pedestrians wearing dark clothes -- happily walking in the centre of the MUP! Were I careless, I would certainly ride into them, increasing the statistics... And yes, I thought about what I had read in the news again!

I think the Police here does not differentiate the "cycling accidents" into ones involving bicycles and other micro-mobility vehicles such as e-scooters, e-unicycles etc yet. I think these e-vehicles become more and more dangerous here. The thing that makes me really irritated are the public share e-scooters just left in the middle of the MUP! Fancy riding into one at night! Trust me: my night rides have become pretty slow now -- just for the sake of the safety...

 

[newts]

I think it depends on traffic volume and location. I am in CA and regularly run through stop signs, but am very aware of where I am and who is around me. As far as lights, I rarely run those-however, if I am the only vehicle in line and there is nobody within a million miles, I may proceed through. It's a tough deal to legislate and could turn into a huge slippy slope. I consider myself a considerate biker and don't like seeing adults on bikes without helmets. But that's just me...

Of course. And that's the whole point. If there's lots of traffic you don't have the right of way and nothing changes from the current situation. But if it is safe to proceed you can make that choice for yourself as you say you do now in defiance of the law.

 

[mschwett]

…. The thing that makes me really irritated are the public share e-scooters just left in the middle of the MUP! Fancy riding into one at night! Trust me: my night rides have become pretty slow now -- just for the sake of the safety...

they pretty much solved that here by requiring the rental apps to get your credit card and drivers license, and the app tells you about a million times that if you don’t lock it to a city bike rack, you’ll get fined $250 instantly. to end the ride you need to take a photo of the scooter locked to a bike rack. then before you submit it, it warns you about the $250 again

before that, we had “scootergeddon” where there were thousands of the things strewn around the sidewalks and streets. i was in a medium sized city in texas recently and it was still like that!

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

This is what I do for the most part. Stop signs I roll through and red lights I treat as stop signs if there are no pedestrian walk lights or they don't work. Lots of red lights won't pick up bikes if they have the old saw cut monitors that detect weight and a lot of the pedestrian cross buttons don't work. More of the new camera style traffic lights seem to pick me up on a bike. Keep in mind this is in a small mid-west town with not a ton of traffic. When I lived in major metro Phoenix, the only rule was don't get killed by the crazy drivers, all rules were off and I generally avoided as much traffic as possible and tried to find bike paths and back roads.

 

[fooferdoggie]

we have that law here in Oregon. what I get a lot is cars stopping for me when I have the stop sign.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

That law is fine and arguably makes things much safer for the cyclist. A cyclist moving very slowly (less than 2mph) can easily look both ways and then get back up to a reasonable speed pretty quickly and clear the intersection.

In general cyclists are pretty good at negotiating obstacles at low speeds and much less efficient at the same when they have to stop and start up again.

 

[jabberwocky]

I'd say the idaho stop codifies how most cyclists learn to ride anyway. I've always tried to be a law-abiding cyclist but there are definitely situations where its best to run a red light (either because it simply won't detect a bike or the way cycles line up work for cars but not necessarily for bikes). I've always just taken the "treat stop signs as yields" is there primarily to stop cops from targeting cyclists for dumb "rolling a stop sign" tickets for not totally stopping and putting a foot down.

The main issue is that it can create complacency around rolling stop signs and running lights. Same issue with turning right on red for motorists. As long as everyone is careful and checks for traffic and yields as necessary, its totally fine. But humans have a tendency to stop being careful when it comes to things they do regularly and start doing them without thinking in situations where they probably shouldn't. But data from states that have enacted it seem to indicate its fine.

 

[Asher]

Full Bike Compliance With the Stop Sign Law: An Effective Spectacle

Countless bike commuters queued up for over a block yesterday to make a completely legal left turn on the Wiggle. As predicted, the demonstration showed the absurdity of how full compliance with th…

sf.streetsblog.org

 

[teskow]

Something else to discuss.
What about two wheel machines splitting lanes. Personally I am for it. One just has to watch out for the grump who sees you coming and opens his car door just before you get to his car.
So many people just seem to hate bicyclists so we need to be courteous and respectful of the road rules and not act like we own the road. Sometimes having the right away and just being right can end up being "DEAD RIGHT".

 

[Taylor57]

Something else to discuss.
What about two wheel machines splitting lanes. Personally I am for it. One just has to watch out for the grump who sees you coming and opens his car door just before you get to his car.
So many people just seem to hate bicyclists so we need to be courteous and respectful of the road rules and not act like we own the road. Sometimes having the right away and just being right can end up being "DEAD RIGHT".

Not for it. I would never attempt it myself due to the risk you just described and if I come upon a traffic jam, I find the sidewalk or shoulder....

 

[mschwett]

Not for it. I would never attempt it myself due to the risk you just described and if I come upon a traffic jam, I find the sidewalk or shoulder....

splitting lanes is explicitly legal here, and pretty much a daily thing for me. i don’t do it when traffic is moving more than a few MPH, but in dense stopped traffic, there’s little to no chance of a door opening between two cars in the middle of a road, or a car moving sideways.

 

[Rexlion]

We have the same type of law in Oklahoma, and I'm very happy to have it. No complaints.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I hear lane filtering (with the cars stationary) is legal in Germany while lane splitting (the cars slowly moving) is not. The matter is not regulated in Poland. The police turns the eye blind on lane filtering and splitting here.

For me, it is a very rare situation to practice either. There is a pretty long road segment where I'm riding to see my brother: no road shoulder, no bike path, even no sidewalk. That segment is almost permanently jammed. I do the lane filtering when the other vehicles remain stationary. I ride at the other vehicle speed when these are in motion, so no actual lane splitting for me. As I hate the risk involved, I often choose an alternative route through the forest even if that is risky in another way (I managed to badly crash on such a forest trip 6 weeks ago).