RadCity vs Haibike Urban Plus?

[rich c]

If you know how to shift a bike, the throttle makes no difference. I can accelerate faster on a Bosch mid drive with torque sensing and shift detection than my Bafang geared hub motor with throttle. If you set the assist to the max, it's about the same current to the motor as a wide open throttle. With the Bosch mid drive, I can easily hit 20mph in half a block

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Haibike, Rlaeigh and Izip uses TranzX motor on several bikes. They have a long business history with TranzX and a company like Accell that owns Haibike, Izip, Raleigh would not have any problem sourcing a motor if the issue arises.
If you use the bike regularly, you get the money back within a year and after that it's all profit!

 

[Motodaddy]

I was recently your position looking for an ebike that fit my commuting needs (10 miles, some hills but nothing crazy). I tried hub drives and mid drives. Hub drives I tried were cross current, Stromer st1 and magnum. As soon as I stepped on a mid drive with a bosch cx system I didn’t look back at the hub drives. The responsiveness and natural feel of this is perfect for the stop and go of real life commuting. Also the emtb mode is great for traffic because you can “set it and forget it” and the system will adjust assist to your needs leaving you able to concentrate on traffic. Turbo mode is just mental. Anyways try this system before you buy anything else. There are a 2017 cube bikes available, I got my cross pro for equivalent of 2100usd.

 

[bob armani]

If you know how to shift a bike, the throttle makes no difference. I can accelerate faster on a Bosch mid drive with torque sensing and shift detection than my Bafang geared hub motor with throttle. If you set the assist to the max, it's about the same current to the motor as a wide open throttle. With the Bosch mid drive, I can easily hit 20mph in half a block

rich C-Just for reference, my Evo Jet 350watt rear hub motor gets me past 20mph within seconds after pushing down on the pedals. I also believe the quick response off the line is due to the TMM4 torque sensor installed by the factory.

 

[bob armani]

Bear with me for a lengthy post:

Just got back from my mtb commute - only the second time I’ve ridden to my new job. Used Google Fit for some tracking info. (side note, I think I would put 1500-2500 mi/yr on the bike)

Route: It’s only 5.1 mi, and my ride home has a steady incline of maybe 250’ gain over 2 miles, then mostly flat. I averaged 10mph roughly. My morning commute is of course the opposite, and averages a little faster with the downhill and less traffic. The uphill section usually has the most stops and starts, also.

stop/go factor: on my afternoon commute, since I stick to the main street with a nice bike lane, it has lots of stop lights and if you hit everyone, I can currently keep up with cars. An ebike may let me branch out to other faster streets with no dedicated bike lane, but I would be flowing with traffic, so I could up my speed and still be safe, I imagine. Either way, there is enough stop and go and I only hit a top speed of 16mph currently, so I see no need to rule out 20mph limited bikes now. Realizing that I may have a more stop and go pattern than many users with dedicated bike paths, I am now wondering if a geared hub motor would offer the best performance? Additionally, I do think I would like a throttle…
...which leads me to realizing that I need to at least ride a mid-motor torque pedalec and throttle/hub for test rides, even if they are not the exact models I may be looking at. They do at least have the Haibike locally. Hopefully that will help me determine if I have a preference for either speed sensor and/or throttle.

So, of course, more models keep popping up: Surface 604 Colt - will that be the best options/compromise for me? Is it worth ~$350 more than a RadCity? I can only imagine how the 2019 models may offer even more features for the same $. Which then makes me thing, go cheap, sell and upgrade later on... lol

Just thinking out loud, but also voicing my process as the additional info may give you guys help in any recommendations…

Surfstar-If you want to buy cheap now and wait for 2019 models, have you considered looking for demo bikes with little wear and tear? You may be able to find one at a very reasonable price and sell it later without taking a big loss...

 

[surfstar]

Had time to test ride some today.
I started at a rental/shop that had Pedego bikes, b/c I wanted to try a hub motor first. It was a rental beach cruiser type model ($2700).
I did enjoy the throttle and realized that shifting was optional if you wanted.

Then went to the Haibike dealer. Unfortunately they didn't have a Hardnine Street or Trekking 4.0 in stock (which are also contenders near the Urban Plus sale price), so I rode the Urban Plus ($1699) first:
felt like riding a "real" bike, but each pedal stroke was super powerful. Wasn't super fast off the line, or overpowering at all, just smooth power all the way around. With the 2.4" tires you don't miss or need a front suspension fork. I was worried about that before testing.
Then I tried the on sale Sduro Cross 4.0 ($1499) to test out the Yamaha motor. The zero-cadence of the Yamaha was the best system, in my opinion. It was instant on and off. I realized after that, that the TranzX had the slightest delay compared to the Yamaha.
They also wanted me to try out a Raleigh REDUX IE ($3k?) with the Brose motor. That thing definitely put out more torque and wanted to cruise at a higher speed. Pretty cool.
Then I hopped back on the Urban Plus, as that is one of my forerunner picks, to get another back to back comparison. Now I could note the slight delay in the motor turned off when you stop pedaling, but it still felt good overall. I do like that the tail light is a brake light, and it should have turn signals available using COBI (I didn't try to use the app or anything, just rode w/o a display).

So, after all of that - I'm STILL undecided! Ugh. I do like to do my research on purchases, but usually something ends up being a more obvious choice. The thing I did notice though, was that with the mid-drive torque sensor bikes, I kept pedaling hard like I would riding a normal bike. I was still getting a workout, even in highest assist levels - I just wanted to go as fast as possible. Which is good, but for commuting I would have to hold back to make sure I wasn't breaking a sweat. So that makes me think a throttle bike would possibly be a plus. Wish there was a RadCity test ride available near me (~2 hours away). Or I could add a throttle to a Haibike. I know you can "tune" the Yamaha bikes to go over 20 mph, if that was ever an issue.

The RadCity wins on price and battery size for the price. I don't know if I'll like the upright seating more or less, than the Haibikes I rode, though. The Urban Plus wins in speed, components quality, tires, lighting, battery (500wh vs 400wh on the other Haibikes). I did seem to like the Yamaha motor the best, though - and it seems quite reliable from what I've gathered.

Decision overload! Just like that psychological study shows.

 

[Johnny]

I am with Ravi here.

For $1700 Haibike is a steal.

If 28mph is not important but you need suspension go for 2016 -2017 Sduro models. Haibike has discounted most models and you can have a trekking/cross or hardnine/seven for under $1800 if you shop around.

 

[Gary R Peacock]

Went and tested the 2018 Haibike Urban Plus today. I really liked it. Felt very comfortable and excellent power. Does anybody know if there are any differences / tweaks between the 2017 & 2018? Any reason not to go for the 2017 and save big? ($1700)

 

[surfstar]

Gary, my dealer said that the 2018s are a carry-over model. No changes at all, not even color options. He seemed to think that they may keep the lower price? Also mentioned that Haibike has many of the 2017s in stock still, while they are getting lower stock on the other discounted under $1700 bikes, like the Hardnine and Cross 4.0.

 

[bob armani]

Had time to test ride some today.
I started at a rental/shop that had Pedego bikes, b/c I wanted to try a hub motor first. It was a rental beach cruiser type model ($2700).
I did enjoy the throttle and realized that shifting was optional if you wanted.

Then went to the Haibike dealer. Unfortunately they didn't have a Hardnine Street or Trekking 4.0 in stock (which are also contenders near the Urban Plus sale price), so I rode the Urban Plus ($1699) first:
felt like riding a "real" bike, but each pedal stroke was super powerful. Wasn't super fast off the line, or overpowering at all, just smooth power all the way around. With the 2.4" tires you don't miss or need a front suspension fork. I was worried about that before testing.
Then I tried the on sale Sduro Cross 4.0 ($1499) to test out the Yamaha motor. The zero-cadence of the Yamaha was the best system, in my opinion. It was instant on and off. I realized after that, that the TranzX had the slightest delay compared to the Yamaha.
They also wanted me to try out a Raleigh REDUX IE ($3k?) with the Brose motor. That thing definitely put out more torque and wanted to cruise at a higher speed. Pretty cool.
Then I hopped back on the Urban Plus, as that is one of my forerunner picks, to get another back to back comparison. Now I could note the slight delay in the motor turned off when you stop pedaling, but it still felt good overall. I do like that the tail light is a brake light, and it should have turn signals available using COBI (I didn't try to use the app or anything, just rode w/o a display).

So, after all of that - I'm STILL undecided! Ugh. I do like to do my research on purchases, but usually something ends up being a more obvious choice. The thing I did notice though, was that with the mid-drive torque sensor bikes, I kept pedaling hard like I would riding a normal bike. I was still getting a workout, even in highest assist levels - I just wanted to go as fast as possible. Which is good, but for commuting I would have to hold back to make sure I wasn't breaking a sweat. So that makes me think a throttle bike would possibly be a plus. Wish there was a RadCity test ride available near me (~2 hours away). Or I could add a throttle to a Haibike. I know you can "tune" the Yamaha bikes to go over 20 mph, if that was ever an issue.

The RadCity wins on price and battery size for the price. I don't know if I'll like the upright seating more or less, than the Haibikes I rode, though. The Urban Plus wins in speed, components quality, tires, lighting, battery (500wh vs 400wh on the other Haibikes). I did seem to like the Yamaha motor the best, though - and it seems quite reliable from what I've gathered.

Decision overload! Just like that psychological study shows.

Surfstar-Thanks for sharing. Very informative report-Just what I was waiting for, to see how these bikes compare. Sounds like the Haibike with TransX and Yamaha are the front runners. Hard choices indeed. Good to know that the Urban Plus rides nice with or without COBI if I've got that right?? The best decision maker in this case is to buy one of each LOL... Happy shopping.

 

[surfstar]

Yes, without COBI hooked up the Urban Plus rode just fine. You would arrow up/down for the PAS settings and there was a tone indicating that it changed settings. Once you went all the way up or down, the tone would not sound, indicating either 0 or the fastest setting.

On paper, I do believe the Urban Plus hits the most "pluses" for me. I like the Schwalbe Super Moto X tires (27.5x2.4), the integrated lights (including brake and hopefully turn), the integrated looks, higher end components, 500wh vs 400wh of other Haibikes, and it tops out over 20mph to never feel "limited" during recreational or faster commuting needs. Also, I don't see a front suspension fork as a "need", especially when the competitors only offer a cheap, heavy, spring fork. I also wouldn't want the $500 price tag of a good air fork added onto a city bike. We are an active couple, yet aren't really into biking; otherwise I would justify a Hardnine for some trail use and that would make my decision. Since I don't see us going mountain biking, it is hard to buy a trail ready bike (just like I won't buy an SUV for driving 99% of the time on roads).

I will likely go with the Urban Plus in White, size M (I'm 5'11 w/ ~32" inseam, 48cm in other Haibikes fit me well it seemed).
I am going to see if there are any cheaper throttle hub motors around to test ride, before finally deciding. Just want to make sure I'm okay with always pedaling vs having a lazy option (more so a non-sweat breaking option for warmer weather).

Another thing - I do like that the Rad bikes can be locked in an "off" position. The battery is locked to the frame and the bike cannot be powered on. I wish all ebikes had that setting. The good thing about the COBI is that you can have an "alarm" feature activated. At work, I would be fine leaving the battery pack locked on the frame and not bringing it inside each day. Although the bike could still be powered on, I think COBI sounds the "alarm" if the bike starts moving. Its not internet capable of sending you a notification to your smartphone, though, which would be ideal.

Its helpful to air my thoughts here, as I have been driving my wife crazy with ebike discussing lately. Also, hopefully this thread provides more info for people looking into one of these models, as I have similarly scoured threads to find info in my decision process. Thanks to Court for putting out so much info, too - I can see ebikes gaining much more popularity in the next couple years, as prices continue to drop (that's what got me even looking into them - the lure of a $1500, capable, Rad bike).

 

[bob armani]

Yes, without COBI hooked up the Urban Plus rode just fine. You would arrow up/down for the PAS settings and there was a tone indicating that it changed settings. Once you went all the way up or down, the tone would not sound, indicating either 0 or the fastest setting.

On paper, I do believe the Urban Plus hits the most "pluses" for me. I like the Schwalbe Super Moto X tires (27.5x2.4), the integrated lights (including brake and hopefully turn), the integrated looks, higher end components, 500wh vs 400wh of other Haibikes, and it tops out over 20mph to never feel "limited" during recreational or faster commuting needs. Also, I don't see a front suspension fork as a "need", especially when the competitors only offer a cheap, heavy, spring fork. I also wouldn't want the $500 price tag of a good air fork added onto a city bike. We are an active couple, yet aren't really into biking; otherwise I would justify a Hardnine for some trail use and that would make my decision. Since I don't see us going mountain biking, it is hard to buy a trail ready bike (just like I won't buy an SUV for driving 99% of the time on roads).

I will likely go with the Urban Plus in White, size M (I'm 5'11 w/ ~32" inseam, 48cm in other Haibikes fit me well it seemed).
I am going to see if there are any cheaper throttle hub motors around to test ride, before finally deciding. Just want to make sure I'm okay with always pedaling vs having a lazy option (more so a non-sweat breaking option for warmer weather).

Another thing - I do like that the Rad bikes can be locked in an "off" position. The battery is locked to the frame and the bike cannot be powered on. I wish all ebikes had that setting. The good thing about the COBI is that you can have an "alarm" feature activated. At work, I would be fine leaving the battery pack locked on the frame and not bringing it inside each day. Although the bike could still be powered on, I think COBI sounds the "alarm" if the bike starts moving. Its not internet capable of sending you a notification to your smartphone, though, which would be ideal.

Its helpful to air my thoughts here, as I have been driving my wife crazy with ebike discussing lately. Also, hopefully this thread provides more info for people looking into one of these models, as I have similarly scoured threads to find info in my decision process. Thanks to Court for putting out so much info, too - I can see ebikes gaining much more popularity in the next couple years, as prices continue to drop (that's what got me even looking into them - the lure of a $1500, capable, Rad bike).

Surfstar- Great breakdown of your bike testing thoughts and experiences. Helps me understand even more. I do not have that many dealers in close proximity as you, so this helps with a little more leg work for the rest of us. I agree with your statement about the RAD battery lock. Wish many other mfgs would follow suit. I would also like to see the Urban have an app for COBI to alert your phone as well. Perhaps it is coming.

Now that you have clarified that the Urban is not dependent of the COBI system being active, sounds like you are making a good choice to fit your riding needs with top notch components. I also like that Urban is available in 3 sizes for the shorter people.

I would also like to see an update on your experience with the Urban once you get settled in with it moving forward. Good Luck with your new purchase!

 

[Carterk]

I’m seeing Motostrano is advertising the Urban Xduro- with the Bosch Performance Speed- for $2000. If the Transx equipped Sduro is a steal at $1700, this model is GRAND LARCENY. Never seen the Bosch 28mph under $3K before...

 

[Johnny]

I believe the defective forks are changed with the good ones.

The difference is the older xduro urbams have the 20mph performance cruise motor (seems to be the same motor with speed just restricted).

I would just call them and ask. I was also considering Xduro Urban, very sleek bike.

 

[rich c]

There was a fork recall on the Xduro Urban, and so the bike has a very bad reputation... Even if the recall only affects older models, it’s the kind of thing that can can really hurt sales.

When there’s a rebate, there’s always a reason... But don’t let people’s perception stop you. That’s a really good bike if you don’t mind not having fenders, a rack, and a suspension fork. Wouldn’t mind getting it myself at that price, except I live in Central Europe....

Rebate? It's a recall. It doesn't have a very bad reputation. Haibike voluntarily recalled the forks after seeing an issue after extensive endurance testing. I consider that the kind of customer service we often talk about. I can't imagine any Chinese bike resellers doing any kind of engineering endurance testing.
https://www.haibike.com

 

[rich c]

I’m seeing Motostrano is advertising the Urban Xduro- with the Bosch Performance Speed- for $2000. If the Transx equipped Sduro is a steal at $1700, this model is GRAND LARCENY. Never seen the Bosch 28mph under $3K before...

I bought two 2016 28mph Haibikes for under $3K. $2,800 for a demo Full Seven S RX with 150 miles on it in Nov 2016, and a brand new Trekking S RX for $2,600 in March 2017.

 

[Carterk]

Too late for me, I bought a Raleigh Redux last week (which I’m very happy with, will post about it soon.) But the Urban I referenced is Bosch Performance Speed with a 500 wh battery, very nice components and the fixed fork- for $2K. I get that previous iterations of this model had a recall and that it hasn’t been popular- I couldn’t care less! It looks slick and is a steal at the price. To address the initial poster’s question- this bike is more than twice the bike the Rad is- for a negligible premium.

 

[Johnny]

The Bosch Performance Cruise is a 250W drive whereas the Bosch Performance Speed has 350W.


It’s a question of perception. Two dealers have told me that bike is their worst Haibike sale, and has been for over 2 years. And given that one of these dealers has over 15 sales outlets it’s not just a ‘coincidence’. But of course, for a Haibike fan that must be difficult to understand. Like it or not, there’s always a reason for a rebate. I speak with dealers, mechanics, and reps, so I always get the inside story minus the marketing hype. Rebate = difficulty to sell, upcoming new model, or excess inventory. It’s just that simple.

Not to down the bike though, I’d jump on it at that price. Over on this side of the pond stores have taken in minimal stock, so I doubt we’ll even get a shot at it. If you want it, you have to order it.

Not really, the 250w vs 350w seems like class 1 vs 3 requirement so they advertise it that way. if you look at the max power you can see that one of them is 570w the other is 575w max and cx is 600w. I doubt there is any significant difference other than the speed limit.

Btw Haibike's gradual price drops is not nice. I was about to pull the trigger on an Sduro fulnine which was $2900 and the model I liked was 3200 ,fortunately I didn't , 2 weeks later they were 1999/2299 respectively. It would have sucked. I am enjoying my xduro cross with cx motor and for the price I paid it seems to be a geat deal.

 

[bob armani]

Too late for me, I bought a Raleigh Redux last week (which I’m very happy with, will post about it soon.) But the Urban I referenced is Bosch Performance Speed with a 500 wh battery, very nice components and the fixed fork- for $2K. I get that previous iterations of this model had a recall and that it hasn’t been popular- I couldn’t care less! It looks slick and is a steal at the price. To address the initial poster’s question- this bike is more than twice the bike the Rad is- for a negligible premium.

Cartek-I also like the Raleigh Redux *Court had a nice review on the 2017 model. How do you like the Brose' motor on your bike? Does it get you up to 28mph with little effort or do you have to work at it ? Curious to see how zippy the Brose' is on that bike...
I also like the 48t crank on that bike for speed. My Evo is equipped with that size as well.

 

[surfstar]

Another set of test rides yesterday at a different shop (I wanted to ride my mtb there, but somehow the rear tire has gone completely flat and won't hold air - WTH)

Still trying to find a "cheap" hub motor setup to simulate riding a RadCity. The shop didn't carry the $1550 bike they showed online. Their only hub motor was a $3000 setup (emotion evo street), but I still took that for a spin, and then a couple mid-drive Giant bikes.

This was good, as it cemented a major realization for me:
I prefer the "lazy" ability of a throttle. All of the mid-drive, torque sensors are really just like riding a bike, but faster/easier. They still require a workout, which is not what I'm actually looking for. I want a faster, non-sweaty, biking commute. Its funny, though, as I am someone who prefers to be active - we run, hike, rock climb, surf, etc., and I do like biking; I just want to have the ability to not have to push when pedaling up a slight hill, and the mid-drive torque motors aren't meeting that for my needs - they require too much push on the pedals to give full assist, for me. Also, the mid-drives require you to stay on top of your shifting for best performance - just like riding a real bike. If I wanted to get a workout and everything, I would just buy a hybrid city commuter, for like $500, that was a little bit faster than my current mtb and ride a regular bike to work. That's not what I'm looking for in an ebike, I've realized.

The other conflict, is that I love a great deal (who doesn't!?!) - and all of the crazy 50% off deals I've been finding, are mid-drives!

If I was short, I'd grab the Raleigh Sprint IE - one left on their website for $1499, and you can add a boost (throttle) to it. If I could somehow know that the IZIP/Raleigh boost button would be able to adapt to the Haibike Urban Plus, I'd go that route (same TranzX motor, but Haibike may use a different controller? The Haibike does offer shift detection vs the others). If someone wants to buy this bike, they should click-through ActiveJunky.com for another 3% discount (use this link: https://www.activejunky.com/invite/18072 and you get an extra $10 if its your first time - so figure a small frame Sprint IE for $1450 after discounts!) https://raleighelectric.com/sprint-ie

Then I also see a Misceo IE Sport for half off - again, great price, hydraulic brakes, decent components, but mid-drive, no throttle. For anyone else looking: https://www.bikesourceonline.com/product/raleigh-electric-misceo-sport-ie-255681-1.htm

As, you can see, I'm good at finding deals online, but have yet to find one on a bike that will fit my "wants." Missed a quick deal on a Surface 604 Colt http://www.ebikesofne.com/Colt-Surface604-p/colt-surface-604.htm $1539, but now out of stock. That I should have jumped on.

So, I'm now leaning towards the Juiced CrossCurrent S - but, I hate to pay full retail, plus tax (CA). That puts it into the same price range as all of the Haibikes I've been looking at. And those seem like a better bike, although I would prefer the hub motor and throttle. As part of my deal finding knack - I hate paying full price for something and feel that the RadCity and CCS would suit me well, IF I snagged a deal on one - like $200 off or something - lol. Just hard for me to pay the same price for a direct to consumer RadCity/CCS, when the fit and finish of a Haibike is much better! I do enjoy getting a good value for my dollar, but the lack of throttle is preventing me from the Haibikes. I realize that I'm such a sucker for a good deal / value, and that is strongly pulling me towards the Urban Plus. If only it could adapt the boost-throttle!

Just some more insight into my thought process as I figure this thing out. Ironically, I may go full circle and just get the RadCity which is what originally got me looking at ebikes...!