heavy duty drive train?

[crazybikeguy]

i have a 3500 watt mid drive (cyc x1 pro gen 3), and im looking for a replacement drive train/groupset, preferably (if possible to withstand forces) a derailluer/cassette gearing system, i do have a 10 speed now but i feel like the chain is just too weak, i wouldnt know though cause i run my engine at about 50% at all times in fear of ruining my drivetrain, but i can get internally geared hubs, if those would be stronger, but in any case, i dont want a motorbike transmission and a huge chain cause thats out of my budget, skill set, and hastle to find parts.

anyways, does anyone have any setups for a 3 speed+ drive train? that can withstand 3500 watts of power (producing about 200 nm of torque btw), no need for loads of gears, 3 is fine, aslong as it can handle the motors power.

(belts may be included but i dont have much knowledge about belts on bikes so id rather the latter)

 

[scrambler]

The ideal configuration for High power is a dual drive train like on the LMX or Boxxbike.
That does require some customization and may not be feasible on your setup though.

 

[indianajo]

Sturmey Archer and Shimano 3 speed IGH can be bought with sprocket for 1/4" wide chain. The question is, will that chain fit through your motor? Buy a chain before the hub and try it. If the KMC are not heavy duty enough, Phelps Dodge make that chain.

 

[crazybikeguy]

yes your right scrambler, but your also right about the fact it wouldnt be feasible for my setup sadly
and indianajo, thanks for the rear hub options that will come in useful but the chain size cant go much over the typical bike chain sizes, but i did do some beforehand research, i have a bit of experience, and know from other sources that a 1 speed chain, maybe a little thicker should be substantial enough to handle the torque on it, and more for a safety margin, but i cant get a motorbike chain unless i modofy the chainring on my motor, wich im not even sure is possible because its like a 1-piece kind of thing, im not sure if other parts would be compatible.

Also if it helps atall, my current 10 speed chain has been handling around 2000 watts pretty well, the cassette and derailluer are worn out though so if i went over a bit the derailluer would bend and make the chain skip gears and that led to all sorts of mangling, i dont think its the chain that struggling that much with the forces (however a thicker one would be better) i personally think its the actual tension from my old derailluer, worn out tooths, etc, i just want a more heavy duty build, not quite a motorbike though, just so i can have a higher safety margin and not worry about my chain skipping anytime i accelerate.

 

[6zfshdb]

You may be able to minimize chain skipping by using a quality alloy derailleur hanger. Using a good alignment tool and doing it often can also help.

This can be a slippery slope though. The hanger is designed to be the weakest link and will bend or break under stress. This may ultimately put more strain on the derailleur.

Might be worth a try.

 

[indianajo]

thanks for the rear hub options that will come in useful but the chain size cant go much over the typical bike chain sizes, but i did do some beforehand research, i have a bit of experience, and know from other sources that a 1 speed chain, maybe a little thicker should be substantial enough to handle the torque on it, and more for a safety margin, but i cant get a motorbike chain unless i modify the chainring on my motor,

1/4" chain is one speed chain, also 15 speed chain. My 15 speed mountain bike from 1986 had 1/4" chain. Fits 5 sprocket derailleur rings, discontinued about 1990.

 

[PedalUma]

Bike parts are not meant for those forces. Then there is the question of where it could be legally ridden. Which is probably not a problem, until it is, when someone gets injured and there is an investigation.

 

[TrevorB]

Given you are building eMotorbike, best place to start is motorbike drive trains.

 

[JRA]

It is too bad that CYC is not developing a final drive option for their system? Anything from the bicycle world will not handle over 2000w reliably. Forget about any type of integrated gear hub at those watts. Only solution, and probably the cheapest, would be to source another front sprocket like the one that CYC makes and put it in place of the bike's final drive sprocket and that will allow you to use the same pitch of chain that CYC uses that they obviously deem to be strong enough? You won't do any better than a single hub sprocket if you are lucky enough to be able to source one, probably for a threaded style hub. It will only be a single speed but with that many watts you won't be pedaling anyway except perhaps in a parking lot not matter how many gears you have.

As noted other manufacturers of high output systems have gone to a primary drive that uses stout chain and sprockets. Wonder what happened to that Canadian Co. that was flashing that type of system around awhile ago, seems to have faded?

 

[crazybikeguy]

alright thank you guys, it seems that theres no bike compatible parts for the forces, seems ill have to diy something from a motorbike or something along those lines, ill get back to this thread at some point to update, for now though im testing my luck with a nexus 3 spd system, slightly thicker 1 speed chain (much better than my old 10 seed) and a thick sprocket

ill just push through maybe burn some money for the sake of getting it to work, if my ways dont work ill just go to some places get something manufactured so i can diy my drivetrain completely or perhaps sell restrict this engine to increase lifespan and get a hub motor for cheaper, to reduce strain on the chain?

anyways thanks for the help

 

[m@Robertson]

@crazybikeguy Its not as bad as all that you just haven't been talking to someone who has done it Mine is an X1 Pro gen1 with a a hotrod ASI BAC 800 controller, built by a Cyc dealer at the time. I got it up to about 40 mph (and the display was reading 40a and still climbing) before I chickened out on a street test. I was thinking about that hi rpm motor screaming away with a kart chain right next to my ankle. Its never been unreliable, but as I said I just chickened out as I don't really ride like that anyway. My motor delivers around 180 Nm. I took this picture when the bike was fresh and still clean, which it never has been since.

One of the things you will have to do is discipline yourself with respect to riding the thing. As noted you cannot expect bicycle parts to survive ... if you ride stupid. On the other hand if you ride a high powered mid drive properly it will be reliable, assuming also that you built it with sturdy stuff.

So here's part 1 whether you want to hear it or not You MUST row thru the gears and never, ever even think about lugging the motor, because it will tear things apart... and thats within your control to avoid. Since you don't have a gear sensor you will have to lift during shifts. And more. But its second nature once you get used to doing it.

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

Step 2 is another article that covers building your drivetrain with strong stuff. Steel cassettes with monolithic construction rather than separable cogs, for instance. Ratchet engagement rear hubs that have 16 points of contact rather than 3, 4 or 5 pawls. The ideal player in this regard is the DT Swiss 350 Classic Hybrid, which is reinforced everywhere, has a special 24-tooth ratchet engagement that is further reinforced over the stocker, and includes the steel cassette body upgrade which will not let your cassette dig slots into your cassette body like it will with an alloy one.

For mine, in 2019, I used the full SRAM EX1 drivetrain. Back then, it was really the only player in town for quality pie-plate-sized steel rear cluster and if you price them now, they are astronomically expensive. It was also really the only player for single-gear shifting, which you really, really want. Now, in 2023 we have multiple choices for single-shifting systems, and multiple clusters. This article was originally written in 2022 but I updated it not so long ago to add in discussion of the different steel clusters that are now available in 11s, 10s and 9s. Bear in mind 11s drivetrains are a tad stronger (!) than 9s which for years was pretty much the DIY standard for being able to take a licking and not get torn apart. You don't want to go anywhere near 8s or less.

How To Build a Mid Drive Ebike That Doesn’t Break

Mid drives up the ante on the required competence of the builder. Read this so your bike lasts without things breaking or wearing out early.

talesontwowheels.com

On chains, probably the star of the show is the SRAM EX1 that is good for 8s, 9s and 10s. KMC 'e' chains are as good or better for high power, but the SRAM is cheap and effective. If you build with a 10s drivetrain, you can use an 11s chain and it will be silent since 11s has the same internal width as a 10s, but is a hair narrower on the exterior measurements. And again, 11s tends to be the strongest of the available choices. Stay away from 12s.

I'm staying away from a deep dive here and just hitting the high points as I already went the long way around in the links above.

 

[crazybikeguy]

oh my gosh robertson, thanks man, i was actually about to dismantle everything and start working on the bike with he incorrectly fitting parts, but i reckoned id check the forum 1 last time just to see, and my gosh am i happy i did, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience, but anyways you wouldnt undertsnad how grateful i am, this saves me atleast 3 days of work and fidgeting around with the hubs, spokes etc, knowing my skills likely a week or more, with failing results

 

[m@Robertson]

@crazybikeguy Glad to be of help. Reading your existing config, I would first spend the $36 or so for the steel Advent X cluster. From the sound of it - you talk about a worn derailleur and cassette body - you would benefit from at least a new shifter/derailleur. I'm not sure how a derailleur gets worn out from a mid drive as there should not be increased wear on that part. Its not subject to torque so much since its on the down side of the chain, but if its gone bad, a matching Microshift Advent X derailleur and single-shift shifter can be had for around a hundred bucks IIRC. Thats what I have on my hill climber cargo bike with a BBSHD and it is subject to absolutely brutal force going up steep hills with as much as an extra 100 lbs of cargo in addition to my 235 lb self plus another 100 lbs of bike and lock and tools. But I also make a point of upshifting so the drivetrain doesn't get abused unnecessarily. I also use an 11s chain on this setup. Ordinarily that would have to be a KMC 11e but I scored a deal on Connex 11s reinforced chains for $25 (regular price is $105) on clearance at JensonUSA. Bought six of them and socked away the extras for down the road.

And remember that when you reinforce things like the chain and the cluster, you are just moving the failure point further inward. Next to go will be the cassette body exterior, and the pawls inside of it... maybe the failure will be the notches in the hub that the pawls engage, which means the hub itself is gone. You have to do it all from the axle outward to expect it to all work forever.

 

[crazybikeguy]

alright thanks once again, and as for the derailluer thing, i was blind sighted as too how bad it was, it was bent up, spring worn, all that. i guess i was too busy on looking at weakness in my chain to notice? regardless im switching out everything in the drivetrain to the advent X cluster like you recommended (though since its an 11-48 cassette, ive never had such a big cassette range, i can feel the power wheelie already ), except im leaving my hub the same, currently its a 12x140mm thru axle shimano MT600, i am a little worried it wont last long with the extreme power of the motor, but id have to buy a whole new wheel and hub (because my current hub is part of the wheel) that'd be compatible with my frame and such wich is a little bit out of my budget, but if things turn south i will buy that extra bit, though from what ive been doing on my bike it seems to cope great

and just to clarify how its currently performing, even with a dirty old bent system, all worn out (apart from new chains i mistakenly bought) it can run about 35% of the torque from the motor, at a peak of about 1700 watts that ive put into my drivetrain before it started skipping, or mangling my chain by accidentally shifting under load (due to derailluer being bad, cables in the housing getting snagged etc) highest speed i reached was about 35 mph, when i had it on fresh, and currently it goes to 20 mph before shady business starts, i keep it in my confident gear (the 3rd biggest out of my 11-36 10 speed cassette, not sure how many teeth but id assume about 28) while 20 mph isnt too bad, considering i usually rode at 15 at best, however i didnt spend all that money on a 5mph increase haha

and as for how i use the bike.... the bike is more there to have fun, obviously i dont rip it round and abuse it too much, but its not exactly just on the streets, so i do factor in the fact the drive train also takes the hit of me going up 45 degree steep grass hills and the forces i impart when hitting small jumps and humps in the ground, i am switching much more to commuting and dont put the bike through too much abuse but i do have my fair share of slightly less.... respectful moments, and while it may be dumb, i like the idea of top speed runs and such, though from what i know the smaller cogs will struggle so i will likely stray away from that and work on power wheelies and drifts perhaps? (yes i am always shifting with the motor not operating, and trying not to rip up the drivetrain with the motor)

anyways thank you for your help all, ill update everyone once i install my new planned drivetrain and how it copes with my slightly elevated amount of abuse i put through it

 

[m@Robertson]

@crazybikeguy I just realized my first link to the Advent X cluster in that article on building above linked to the alloy version of the cluster. The second link in the cluster section shows the proper hardened steel version. Fifty bucks and well worth it. Mine is still looking unworn after almost a hear of hauling bags of gravel and cartfuls of groceries up steep hills.

 

[crazybikeguy]

dont worry i ordered the right one
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/p/microshift-advent-x-h104-10-speed-mtb-cassette
its a different site, and i got it for half the price that you showed me, but still hardened steel, but yet again thank you for the notice

also your link is out of stock on amazon? atleast for me

 

[m@Robertson]

Chain Reaction is a good source. Have bought from them many times. We've had serious supply issues here in the States and I've roped in parts from as far away as Eastern Europe. I think at least two of my DT Swiss rear hubs came from the UK.

You're lucky you hit a sale. Its the season for component deals right now. The USA Amazon link shows 1 in stock. Tomorrow who knows maybe it will show 20 or zero.