Group Riding with Traditional Gravel Cyclists on E-Bike (dilemmas)

[almikel]

I don't see that drafting is common on ebikes at all. Much more so for roady group rides where it makes a much bigger difference. It is a skill I have been working to master out of desire to ride with my roady friends.

I'm completely comfortable with drafting, having ridden in bunches for decades, and in years gone by have occasionally targeted trucks and busses to draft behind, which is obviously not a safe practise.

Recently I had a roadie draft behind me for many km on the flats.
When the terrain turned twisty and uphill he came and had a chat about e-bikes.

I draft and get drafted all the time on my daily commute...it's very rare with strangers that you "share the work", but it happens occasionally...
...when drafting paying attention is paramount - you need to keep an eye on the route ahead and the wheel in front, and of course behind for overtaking riders...

cheers
Mike

 

[Alvin1957]

Having already had three group rides behind me...
...I think I can share some experiences.

Ride A was done with a group of people who have known one another for several years. A gravel-fanatic, a roadie on his "winter bike" (a hardtail MTB), a female roadie riding a road bike, and a young man on a hardtail. "Friendship" was the motto of that very group. They invite any new member enthusiastically and help him (and one another) all the time.
I was riding my Vado at that time. It was mostly roads and the first ride leg was downwind. Group members perceived me as an old ailing man, especially as I kept myself in the tail of the ride. The female roadie Ania was often asking me how I was feeling, especially as they rode > 30 km/h. I was smiling and replying I had the best ride of my life

The situation changed on the upwind leg. I could instantly understand the group was struggling so I rode up to the front and suggested drafting. The gravel-man was actually "sitting" on my rear wheel and giving me precise instructions. Post-ride, he was publicly thanking me for saving the day for them (we rode more than a metric century on that day).

Ride B was done together with two men from the previous group and it was gravel-oriented: asphalt, gravel, dirt, off-road. Full respect and friendship. The roadie had been tired because of upwind, I and the gravel-man respected that. Again, fine long ride. (Because of the "gravel-cycling", I rode Trance E+, an e-MTB).

Ride C was a disaster. The group leaders were a bunch of arrogant and selfish "professionals". I was met with a technical problem at the ride start and was left alone. Next, they left a new group member (a covid convalescent) alone. I was (riding Trance E+) able to catch up with that convalescent, and we had a nice ride together.

Regarding e-bikes and drafting: A dual or spare battery is a must if you want to lead a peloton upwind. Nothing comes free if one needs to conquer the elements.

Everyone's posting are very much like what I have encountered in the pre-covid group rides. Only very rarely have I encountered rude or arrogant "professionals". Most everyone has always been helpful with pointers, reminders and the occasional use of a hex-wrench. Sometimes a little embarrassing since I have been one of the older and slower riders and people are slowing and asking if I'm okay. I like to look for hawks, rabbits and the like and that slows me down even more. On our last two rides we did notice that the few e-bikers about were really excited to talk about their machines...far more so than conventional bikers. I will blame them for my 'current' addiction.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Our club allows ebikes on rides in the 26 km/h and slower groups. The slower paces are not quite as spirited and are more tolerant of less experienced riders. Generally these slower groups are more fun to ride with.

 

[jabberwocky]

Ride C was a disaster. The group leaders were a bunch of arrogant and selfish "professionals". I was met with a technical problem at the ride start and was left alone. Next, they left a new group member (a covid convalescent) alone. I was (riding Trance E+) able to catch up with that convalescent, and we had a nice ride together.

This is actually pretty normal on high paced group road rides. The assumption is that everyone is experienced and knows the route, and they almost never stop for mechanicals. You’re expected to keep up or ride by yourself.

Now, if they advertise a casual pace and then take off, that’s a different matter. I’ve had that happen and it’s rude and a bit mystifying.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I understand, Jabber. It was a public event with the description:
"A friendly escapade to [location]. The format is: We're riding as a group, adjusting the pace to its capabilities".

Post-ride, I didn't complain. Instead, I wrote a ride report including a ride map and metrics, photos, and description. First, I thanked the organisers for preparing an exciting route. I explained the nature of the technical problem that prevented me from keeping up with the group. I mentioned a ride together with the weakest group member who "alas could not match the professional pace of the group".

The organiser explained the group made an "ad hoc" decision to complete the 90 km trip within 3 hours (actually, they needed 3 h 40 min to make it). He even was not sorry but said "We're going to be slower the next time". (Actually, they lost 20% of the group).

I'm not riding with them anymore.

 

[jabberwocky]

I understand, Jabber. It was a public event with the description:
"A friendly escapade to [location]. The format is: We're riding as a group, adjusting the pace to its capabilities".

Post-ride, I didn't complain. Instead, I wrote a ride report including a ride map and metrics, photos, and description. First, I thanked the organisers for preparing an exciting route. I explained the nature of the technical problem that prevented me from keeping up with the group. I mentioned a ride together with the weakest group member who "alas could not match the professional pace of the group".

The organiser explained the group made an "ad hoc" decision to complete the 90 km trip within 3 hours (actually, they needed 3 h 40 min to make it). He even was not sorry but said "We're going to be slower the next time". (Actually, they lost 20% of the group).

I'm not riding with them anymore.

Ah. Yeah, thats crappy. Unfortunately a common issue in the roadie world. The local club here was famous for rides way exceeding advertised pace (like, a ride whose description said 12-14mph average would take off at 18+ and drop everyone pretty much immediately). I know its something they were working hard to address, but I haven't ridden with them in years.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Ah. Yeah, thats crappy. Unfortunately a common issue in the roadie world. The local club here was famous for rides way exceeding advertised pace (like, a ride whose description said 12-14mph average would take off at 18+ and drop everyone pretty much immediately). I know its something they were working hard to address, but I haven't ridden with them in years.

That's how you keep a cycling club small. That's two plus pace groups faster than advertised. We split the pace groups at two mph intervals.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

We split the pace groups at two mph intervals.

That was promised, too. Not kept.

 

[ruffruff]

I would never join a club that would have me as member.
Groucho Marx

 

[Alaskan]

P t9560

I would never join a club that would have me as member.
Groucho Marx

Off topic but funny enough to be worthy of mention:

After the movie Coconuts became the first big hit for the Marx Brothers, Groucho bought a home in an upscale beachfront neighborhood on Long Island. When he tried to joint the local beach club he was told that the club did not allow Jews to be members. Groucho then asked, "Can my son, who is half Jewish, join and just go in up to his waist?"

 

[mogulskier]

Ah. Yeah, thats crappy. Unfortunately a common issue in the roadie world. The local club here was famous for rides way exceeding advertised pace (like, a ride whose description said 12-14mph average would take off at 18+ and drop everyone pretty much immediately). I know its something they were working hard to address, but I haven't ridden with them in years.

I stopped doing motorcycle group rides awhile ago, but this was commonplace in those group rides as well. It was advertised as "C" pace (newbie friendly) on moderate routes (avoiding the highly technical roads and/or sections). Folks would show up who are "A" riders. Inevitably, those in the back "tried" to keep pace by riding outside their limits. On a motorcycle, just open up the throttle is all it takes. Resulted in too many crashes and/or very near misses.

Posted group rides that were on technical roads and clearly advertised as an "A" pace always attracted a few folks who lacked the required skills and experience. Group leaders worth their weight would politely ask them to leave, for their own safety.

 

[Robspace1]

@Stefan Mikes Drafting is real. Trading off the lead so that the person punching a hole in the wind changes, helps everyone keep a faster pace. It even makes a difference on an ebike.

I ride two or three days per week with a group of lifelong roadies who are in my rather advanced age category. At 70 I am squarely in the middle of the pack age wise. These are inspiring athletes who are aging with fitness, health, grace and humor.
,
My first few rides I lingered near the back of the pack, getting accustomed to the pace and learning the ethos of the group and how to ride in a pace line, keeping a steady cadence and rate of speed.

Then on about the fourth ride we turned a corner into a stiff headwind, I moved into the lead, giving the other riders the benefit of my motor. I kept glancing in the rear view mirror to make sure I was keeping a pace that worked for the rest of the group, not forging ahead , with everyone locked in tight. I even sat up straighter and boosted my assist to punch a bigger hole in the wind for the pack to draft behind. At the end of this ride, I was a fully accepted member of the group.

The bike I was riding the most when I joined in was a Riese & Muller Homage, about as far away from a road bike as you can get. It is not the bike that will win you acceptance, it is your attitude and personality. Contribute when you can, be attentive, show respect, be humble, don't make a show of your bike's power or speed, Always join in the end ride beer stop or lunch. It is not the bike that will help you get accepted, it is you. Those social times will present an opportunity for you to share how ebiking has helped improve your health, loose weight, become a better cyclist. All those things will win you respect in return,

I am a fairly alpha type. However it helps at first to keep a low profile at first, listen more and talk less. Open up more as you feel your acceptance is growing.

And now almost three years after joining the group, I am riding a drop bar ebike and loving it.

Good answer. I have been on just three rides with the local bike club and I'm ready to give it up. Yesterday I was the only ebike in the group and the problem is the cadence. When their cruising along on the flatland, their doing 25 mph or so, which means I have to go up a mode and use more battery power to keep up, (shortening my range) which I normally only use on big hills. I normally ride at around 15-16 mph on flat ground. Then when we hit hills I have to slow way down for everyone as they go up at about 10 mph on the hills. when I could be doing 15 or so. I'd really like to find group of ebikers to ride with . Ebikes are a better match with other ebikes. They sync up better imo.

 

[Alaskan]

Good answer. I have been on just three rides with the local bike club and I'm ready to give it up. Yesterday I was the only ebike in the group and the problem is the cadence. When their cruising along on the flatland, their doing 25 mph or so, which means I have to go up a mode and use more battery power to keep up, (shortening my range) which I normally only use on big hills. I normally ride at around 15-16 mph on flat ground. Then when we hit hills I have to slow way down for everyone as they go up at about 10 mph on the hills. when I could be doing 15 or so. I'd really like to find group of ebikers to ride with . Ebikes are a better match with other ebikes. They sync up better imo.

I just returned from a 33 mile ride with the guys (and gals) There were four Specialized Turbo Creos and a Haibike hard tail in the group of 15 riders today (plus me on a Cannondale Topstone Neo Carbon 3). The group of hard core roadies is evolving toward e-road bikes with the development of lighter more stealthy drop bar ebikes.

Our average speed today was 17.5 mph which meant we were scooting along at 22-25 through much of the flat portions. Switching off the lead allow you to draft, significantly reducing battery draw. I finished this ride with 39% of my 500w battery remaining. there was definitely a faster group and a slower one but there are several stopping and regrouping points along the route that we all agree to so we ended up more or less back at the starting point for lunch and frosty adult beverages.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hi, OP here I think I gained quite an experience since I started this thread, and would like to share some of my views.

My riding friends can be split into slow and fast riders. My Speed Vado has turned out to be the most flexible of all of my e-bikes, allowing me riding with either less or more sporty traditional cycling types. The key here would be motor tuning flexibility (both Assistance Level and Max Motor Power can be easily tuned up in range 0-100%); and a spare battery.

On one of the "slow" group rides, I transported my Vado (with a single 600 Wh battery) to the ride start place with a commuter train. After the group made the leisure trip, I found there was a plenty of battery juice left so I just rode home. I was facilitated by mild tailwind on the way back, and used more assistance at that time to help my tired legs. 104.5 km (almost 65 miles) with 13% of battery left. I need to add that 73% of the distance was ridden with 20/20% Assistance/Max Motor Power, and the average speed was very low, contributing to the impressive battery range.

A more recent ride involved strong cyclists, including a female. She could not spin but only mash pedals. It made her cruising speed consistent at 30 km/h (18.6 mph) regardless upwind or downwind (that blew at the same speed as her cruising speed!) Now, that would be hard for me! I used two 600 Wh batteries, with 22% total charge left in batteries (of which only 12% could effectively be used should that be necessary). My Assistance/Max Motor Power were 60/60% upwind, 45/45% for sidewind, and 35/35% elsewhere, including some returning upwind (to conserve the remaining battery charge). 130.6 km (81 mi) ridden.

My hub-drive Lovelec might be as good as Vado with regard to the range (with two batteries) for the fast ride, yet it is not a proper e-bike for group rides. First of all, the e-bike is unable to ride slowly (unless artificially restricted by keystroke sequence on the remote). On the other hand, riding really fast (like, 35 km/h or some 22 mph) requires either some tailwind or strong pedalling. Lovelec would have failed me on both type of rides.

My unrestricted Trance E+ on Schwalbe Johnny Watts tyres (good for any terrain) would be proper for riding with gravel cyclists: It is far better than a gravel bike off-road and fast enough on pavement; two batteries ensuring great range. I actually had several rides with gravel cyclists and the e-bike proved itself. It is not, however, the ideal road touring e-bike.

I'm not sure whether my (potentially) future Vado SL would be proper for group rides. Its light weight is compelling. The range on the main battery (possibly with a Range Extender) is impressive only if the e-bike is either ridden slowly (maximum cruising speed of 25 km/h), or is pedalled without assistance past the speed limiter (I cannot do it). Derestricting the SL would simply mean losing all that great battery range.

 

[Robspace1]

Like some have said, I'm just not real sure ebikes are really welcome in the biking clubs. The club I've been going with barely say a word to me all during the trip and during breaks. And keeping up should be real easy if they kept to the posted speed, but they go much faster and I end up using my battery more than my legs making it useless for exercise. the pace said 12 not 20-25 and even though I could lay on the battery and go to 30 mph, it defeats the purpose of my ride. I have a 1000w bike but only use the power on the many hills we have.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have a 1000w bike

Don't get me wrong Rob but I think such power appears to be excessive for riding with traditional cyclist that might sustain 200-300 W leg power max unless they are pro. Moreover, are you talking on a road-cycling club? Roadies are fast, and keeping up with them could be hard if the members are relatively young and fit people. If your 1000 W e-bike is a hub-drive, it is not the type suitable for group riding with traditional cyclists; a 250 W (nominal) mid-drive motor is appropriate; such e-bike is lightweight enough, economic on the battery, and it really gives a good workout.

As my and @Alaskan's examples prove, we can ride with cycling groups of different types. I can cope with both gravel and general cycling groups while Alaskan does with senior roadies. The mid-motors of our e-bikes are all 250 W (at least nominally), and we both use lower assistance levels for greater range.

We could also look to the notion of "cycling club" from another perspective. A club typically assumes its members are there for performance, not for riding pleasure. Traditional performance cyclists indeed hate the idea they sweat while an "electrician" rides with them painless. For that reason, I never ride with any club. A Facebook fanpage I found groups people of different flavours: roadies, gravel crowd, MTBers, trekkers, and casual riders. If a group ride event is posted, it is often involving people of different riding tastes, and such group agrees to ride together for pleasure. My most favourite group are: a competing roadie riding hardtail MTB for pleasure, a non-competing roadie, a gravel cyclist, a guy riding a XC bike, and a casual but fast general bike rider. I fit there perfectly, as the only condition is to be able to ride for at least a metric century at "not snail" speed.

The group I just mentioned has learnt appreciating an e-biker riding with them. First of all, I don't fall behind. Secondly, they can be drafting behind me upwind. Thirdly, they understand e-bike allows elderly and/or ill people enjoy cycling; and they begin to be aware they would become old and sick themselves some day.

 

[jabberwocky]

I've done a fair bit of riding with the local gravel/road club this year. I've always been the only one on an ebike. They are a chill bunch and nobody has minded, though I do tend to hang mid pack or sweep the fast group when I ride the ebike instead of pushing the pace at the front. They average 15-17mph on gravel (the fast group) which isn't difficult on the ebike, though I tend to switch it on and off to keep myself working hard.

Hanging with fast roadies is a place where even a class 3 might struggle. It isn't difficult for a reasonably fit group of experienced roadies riding in a disciplined paceline to hold 25mph+, and that quickly starts bumping into max assist.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

Let them try out your ebike, either before or after a ride. I'll bet you'll convert some of them.

 

[Robspace1]

Let them try out your ebike, either before or after a ride. I'll bet you'll convert some of them.

The group seems to have two groups of riders. Those under 50 and those over. I'm 72 and because I don't yet know their different routes I follow all the way or someplace in the middle. The size of wattage should have no bearing on the way the group rides. The younger group takes off about 10 min. before us seniors do. But these bikes are a lot faster than I normally ride in assist mode. These rides are all on paved streets and trails, no dirt. On the last ride I was the only while, but on others there has been A few of us in the group but they are also having to use power mode to keep up on the flat lands. If they kept to the pace set, which on the runs I sign up for are 12-14, it would solve the problem. When they run all out and average 20-25 mph I need power and my battery will take A hit. And my whole reason for going is fun and exercise and not to run a race or chase people. I do think that this will change as more people see the huge advantage ebikes offer, especially to us older folks. Their bikes weigh less than my tires alone lol. The last ride I asked one rider if she gets many flats on those super thin tires. She said she does and I suggested getting lined tires. She said they were too heavy! So, better to spend time and trouble fixing flats on the roadside than getting tougher tires? As a retired trucker, this logic does not work imo. Less breakdowns means better mileage.

 

[jabberwocky]

Let them try out your ebike, either before or after a ride. I'll bet you'll convert some of them.

The cyclist who leads my local gravel group is this guy:

A Cyclist Is Setting Off To Save Miles Of Loudoun County's Historic Gravel Roads

The county is home to 250 miles of gravel roads, some dating back to the 1700s. As development threatens some of those roads, one cyclist says he'll ride them all in one sitting to raise awareness.

www.npr.org

He rode 250 miles of gravel in 24 hours. He doesn't need an ebike.