Fold 1 PAS system

[Old-tool-guy]

I had another brand for 2-3 yrs and it was a good bike. It was a cruiser style, enjoyed it, but the stepover height started becoming a problem with ARI (if you don’t know, that’s age related issues. You’ll get there).

So I researched and bought a velotric fold 1 regular. Don’t need the folding feature, but the stepover height is only 16” which is 6” less than the old bike. Works great. But I’m finding that i don’t like the settings of the PAS system. Both bikes have the cadence style, but it seems that the Fold is not as aggressive. For example, if i am in level 3 or 4 and mash the thumb throttle, the power comes on slowly and then tapers off. I watch the bar graph on the display, i can see it add power for several seconds but then it starts dropping bars. 10 sec later it starts adding again. On my old bike if i held the buttn down the controller would keep adding power up to max. And when i am pedalling i find that i need to be in a higher level, for example i used to stay in 3 most of the time, now i stay in 4. And it doesn’t seem to be giving as much assist as I want.

So is it me? (Can't be). Is the PAS adjustable?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Sounds like my wife's Velotric Breeze 1 has a different PAS (pedal assist system) with both cadence- and torque-sensing modes. But from your description, also sounds like your Fold and her Breeze have the same crappy throttle implementation.

Doubt you can do anything about it, but check with the dealer or customer support before giving up. The Breeze is so well thought out in every other respect that I really can't fathom why they'd program a throttle this way.

The progessive thumb throttle on my torque-sensing hub-drive is perfect. Up to 20 mph, it just adds controlled power to whatever I'm doing (up to the bike's max power) in a predictable way that doesn't depend on assist level. Combine that with torque-sensing PAS, and you've got a very flexible and totally controllable power delivery scheme.

 

[Old-tool-guy]

Yep, same situation. The Fold Plus has both styles but i was happy with the cadence and didn’t see a need to,buy the higher level. And your description of the throttle on your other bike matches my other bike … worked great, so why change it? I sent a note to customer service, hope they have a solution.

 

[Chazmo]

i used to stay in 3 most of the time, now i stay in 4. And it doesn’t seem to be giving as much assist as I want.

Hi:

Just to be clear, are you talking about comparing your old bike's PAS levels to the Velotric Fold? Or, are you talking about a difference in the Fold’s power deliver with throttle depressed vs. not? I’m just a little confused since PAS levels are not standardized across manufacturers or even across different models from the same manufacturer.

Even though I've asked you for clarification, it seems that the Fold is not meeting your needs, regardless of the throttle situation. That’s unfortunate. Can you trade this bike in to maybe get the updated Fold model? The throttle might still be wonky, but if you ride your bike like I do then non-throttled performance is paramount — not that there’s any guarantees that you’d be happier with the newer model.

I hope you find a solution that works for you, old-tool-guy!

 

[Old-tool-guy]

Chaz … i realize the pas levels are unique to each brand, but both have levels 1 to 5 and i would expect them to be roughly similar. We ride bike trails, not city streets, so the ride should be pretty consistent from day to day. So if old bike was 2 & 3 and new bike is 4 & 5 to give the amount of effort i want,then they aren’t tuned the same. And definitely the throttle response is very different.

I wonder if i can swap the Fold Plus control panel onto my bike?

My old bike had/has menu options so you can adjust the pas levels, for example i think level 1 gave 18% power but you could make it higher or lower. Wonder if the Fold has the same options.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

So if old bike was 2 & 3 and new bike is 4 & 5 to give the amount of effort i want,then they aren’t tuned the same.

That assumes comparable motors. How close are the power and torque ratings?

 

[Old-tool-guy]

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

But how do those specs compare with the previous bike?

Sorry, I see now that 2 bikes are represented there. Power and torque ratings have to be taken with a block of salt, but if the old bike really had 20 Nm more torque at comparable weight, it would've been more responsive but not necessarily any faster at a given assist level.

 

[Chazmo]

Chaz … i realize the pas levels are unique to each brand, but both have levels 1 to 5 and i would expect them to be roughly similar. We ride bike trails, not city streets, so the ride should be pretty consistent from day to day. So if old bike was 2 & 3 and new bike is 4 & 5 to give the amount of effort i want,then they aren’t tuned the same. And definitely the throttle response is very different.

I wonder if i can swap the Fold Plus control panel onto my bike?

My old bike had/has menu options so you can adjust the pas levels, for example i think level 1 gave 18% power but you could make it higher or lower. Wonder if the Fold has the same options.

Hi Old-tool-guy!

Just curious, but what was your old bike that also had 1 to 5 PAS settings?

You should definitely ask Velotric about this before putting any money into it. Using the Fold Plus’s display on your bike might give you access to some PAS control features, but I am guessing that the power controllers are different (between the regular and Plus models). I’m guessing that’s the case that because the addition of the torque sensor almost certainly affects the power delivery programming. So, even if the display works, it might not let you access or even change anything. I don’t want to speak out-of-turn, though.

Jeremy has a lot of valuable experience regarding PAS on their latest bikes so I’ll defer to his thoughts (or other Velotric owners) about changing anything in that space. Furthermore, if I recall correctly (and I surely might not be ) , his wife’s Breeze had a different (more flexible) PAS level system than what you’re dealing with on the older Fold. I’ll also defer to Jeremy regarding the throttle. It sounds to me like Velotric just programmed this strangely (and very non-standardly, if there were such a thing). And, what I’m saying here is you almost certainly won’t be able to fix that aspect of the bike. Unless these bikes’ power controllers can be reprogrammed (I seriously doubt that) then I think Jeremy researched this fully and found no control settings for the behavior, and thus no adjustability to be had.

Best wishes.

 

[Old-tool-guy]

Ok, after i posted the specs i saw the 20 nm difference, which would account for the torque, and needing to be in a higher pas level. I can accept that. But the poor performance of the throttle button is not acceptable. I have emailed customer service, i hope we start a discussion. One of my questions will be if i can swap the controller.

 

[stompandgo]

The Fold 1 only has a cadence sensor. No torque sensor like the Fold 2. I'm pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with your bike, and that other controllers cannot be swapped in. Let us know what you find out.

 

[Old-tool-guy]

Short term answer … changed the max speed to 28 and set the pas to level 5. Very short test ride (down the street and back) the throttle seems to pull consistently and strong. That was my biggest complaint, i can accept needing to be in a higher pas level, but i wouldn’t mind programming the controller to increase the power at each level. For now i’m ok, need to take it out for a longer run.

 

[Old-tool-guy]

The Fold 1 only has a cadence sensor. No torque sensor like the Fold 2. I'm pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with your bike, and that other controllers cannot be swapped in. Let us know what you find out.

I prefer the cadence sensor, that’s what i learned on and i like it.

 

[PedalUma]

mash the thumb throttle, the power comes on slowly and then tapers off.

The bike is programed for older people. That is the marketing target. It is meant to be smooth and not scary and jerky. Because of the lag and that it is a heavy fat folder hub-drive with a cadence sensor, it is mostly useless, except for maybe getting across a flat Tulsa trailer park by exercising one's thumb. It is a quintessential tornado-zone bike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The Fold 1 clearly has a different PAS than the Breeze. The Breeze also has 5 assist levels, but they come in 3 different tunings or "modes" — ECO, TRAIL, and BOOST — selected with a separate button.

In the saddle, these modes feel like they progressively add power to all 5 levels at once. Cannot find a way to tune the 5 levels individually, but this flexibility might be enough for the OP's purposes.

Per the Quick Start Guide, the display menu offers only one throttle-related setting:

When OFF, I think it decouples throttle response from assist mode when the PAS is set for torque-sensing. As I recall, OFF was an improvement but not enough to make me like the throttle implementation overall.

Ok, after i posted the specs i saw the 20 nm difference, which would account for the torque, and needing to be in a higher pas level.

As a rule of thumb, torque goes to acceleration, and power goes to top speed under a given set of riding conditions. So the torque difference, if real, may not fully explain the perceived assist differences between your old and new bikes.

Both bikes have the same nominal power rating of 750W. But that's electrical power input. If real, and the motors are equally efficient, then the motors also have similar mechanical power outputs.

Which takes us back to PAS programming. And we already know that ebikes can differ dramatically on that front.

 

[Old-tool-guy]

Jeremy … unfortunately I don’t have an M button on the controller.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy … unfortunately I don’t have an M button on the controller.

Understood.