Creo 2 vs SC Skitch

[PetroK]

Hi folks, did anybody had chance to ride both bikes and compare power output, motor noise, etc? Ideally if you also had experience with Ebikemotion x35 motor previously.

I've Orbea Gain gravel version and my main use case are bikepacking trips usually in Vermont or upstate New York. This is usually hilly terrain and with all extra weight of bags, Orbea/x35 is really struggling if gradient is more than 12-13% to the point that I had to dismantle and walk it.

On paper SL1.2 spec doesn't look as huge gain over x35, while Fazua looks like quite significant increase. But paper is paper, so I would really appreciate some real life feedback, especially if somebody has similar experience.


x35 250W nominal power, 250W peak and 40Nm of torque

SL 1.2 250W nominal power with 320w of peak output and 50 Nm of torque

Fazua 60 350W nominal power with 450W short boost mode. 60Nm of torque

 

[mschwett]

i think you'll see a HUGE difference with either bike. a significant "problem" with the x35 is that it really isn't efficient at producing power at low speeds, and since it's a hub rather than mid drive the range of speeds it has to deal with are much larger than a mid drive with a derailleur drivetrain. the 40Nm of torque of the x35 is kind of a made up number - the actual torque at the rear hub of an X35 is around 17-20nm. so, if you're in the hardest gear on the bike, that's actually a lot since the mid-drive torque is being cut by a factor of 4 due to gearing, turning the fazua's 60Nm into 15Nm at the rear axle.

if you're in the easiest gear, around 1:1 on most gravel bikes, the SL 1.2 or Fazua have around three times the torque, and probably twice the power. i have an X20 bike which is quite a bit more torquey than the X20 and at speeds below 8mph it can really only output around 150w.

my real world comparison (i have both bikes) is x20 to SL 1.1, and the SL 1.1 gives a lot more assist going up steep hills at low speeds. i would say close to twice. i personally don't find that necessary since i do entirely road riding and am OK with slow speeds up big hills, but in your case, a mid drive with a big granny gear sounds like the ticket.

 

[Nubnub]

I'm also interested in the Skitch as well as comparisons between the SL1.1 and 1.2 motors. Currently I have a 4.0 SL with the 1.1 motor as well as a tero 5.0 with the 2.2 brose. I was able to test ride a Skitch flat bar for a couple hours doing about 25 miles and 2000 feet of climb. Unless Specialized comes out with a flat bar Creo or a Vado SL with the 1.2 motors, I think my next bike (upgrade) will be for a Skitch. It is lighter and more powerful than my SL which is nearing 4 years old anyway and the Skitch seems easier to pedal with no assist as well. Even climbing it is ok pedaling unassisted - it does have an extra low 52 tooth low gear. For the most part is is also quieter than my SL but there is some kind of ratcheting noise evident at low rpms that was somewhat disturbing until the sales person said that was normal (for now) for the Fazua motor. Range also seems ok as I used less than 1/2 the battery for my ride - I'm sure 60+ miles would be possible with less climbing.

While I have not ridden a 1.2 version motor, there are plenty of eMTB youtubes that compare the 1.2 vs 1.2 as well as the Fazua and TQ motors. The other option besides waiting for specialized to release a 1.2 Vado SL or a flat bar creo is to do a motor swap. The kids levo sl is on sale now and it appears I could do the motor swap myself and give away/donate/sell the kids levo with my old 1.1 motor. It also appears this would be a good way for me to end up with two non-functioning bikes .

 

[mschwett]

I'm also interested in the Skitch as well as comparisons between the SL1.1 and 1.2 motors. Currently I have a 4.0 SL with the 1.1 motor as well as a tero 5.0 with the 2.2 brose. I was able to test ride a Skitch flat bar for a couple hours doing about 25 miles and 2000 feet of climb. Unless Specialized comes out with a flat bar Creo or a Vado SL with the 1.2 motors, I think my next bike (upgrade) will be for a Skitch. It is lighter and more powerful than my SL which is nearing 4 years old anyway and the Skitch seems easier to pedal with no assist as well. Even climbing it is ok pedaling unassisted - it does have an extra low 52 tooth low gear. For the most part is is also quieter than my SL but there is some kind of ratcheting noise evident at low rpms that was somewhat disturbing until the sales person said that was normal (for now) for the Fazua motor. Range also seems ok as I used less than 1/2 the battery for my ride - I'm sure 60+ miles would be possible with less climbing.

While I have not ridden a 1.2 version motor, there are plenty of eMTB youtubes that compare the 1.2 vs 1.2 as well as the Fazua and TQ motors. The other option besides waiting for specialized to release a 1.2 Vado SL or a flat bar creo is to do a motor swap. The kids levo sl is on sale now and it appears I could do the motor swap myself and give away/donate/sell the kids levo with my old 1.1 motor. It also appears this would be a good way for me to end up with two non-functioning bikes .

i’m sure there will be a 1.2 vado.

a flat bar creo is very, very unlikely IMO. i have never seen a flat bar diverge in the wild, out of easily hundreds out here. i suppose you get one that’s a size too big and convert it!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The kids levo sl is on sale now and it appears I could do the motor swap myself and give away/donate/sell the kids levo with my old 1.1 motor. It also appears this would be a good way for me to end up with two non-functioning bikes

I'm still not sure how the motor set up for 24" wheels would work on a full size bicycle.

 

[mschwett]

I'm still not sure how the motor set up for 24" wheels would work on a full size bicycle.

presumably the speedometer would be off by the corresponding percentage, it would assist to slightly higher speeds and so on?

Parents can choose between 10 mph (recommended for younger children and/or children new to e-bikes) and 15.5 mph (for older and more experienced riders). Speed settings can be adjusted by an Authorized Specialized Retailer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

presumably the speedometer would be off by the corresponding percentage, it would assist to slightly higher speeds and so on?

Indeed, the difference in the wheel circumference between 50-540 (Levo SL Kids) and 38-622 (Vado SL) is only 5%.

Parents can choose between 10 mph (recommended for younger children and/or children new to e-bikes) and 15.5 mph (for older and more experienced riders). Speed settings can be adjusted by an Authorized Specialized Retailer.

It seems to be more worrisome for a U.S. adult rider, doesn't it?

For me, I would be sick to see "Turbo Levo SL Kids" for my Vado SL in the Specialized or Mission Control app

 

[PetroK]

i think you'll see a HUGE difference with either bike. a significant "problem" with the x35 is that it really isn't efficient at producing power at low speeds, and since it's a hub rather than mid drive the range of speeds it has to deal with are much larger than a mid drive with a derailleur drivetrain. the 40Nm of torque of the x35 is kind of a made up number - the actual torque at the rear hub of an X35 is around 17-20nm. so, if you're in the hardest gear on the bike, that's actually a lot since the mid-drive torque is being cut by a factor of 4 due to gearing, turning the fazua's 60Nm into 15Nm at the rear axle.

if you're in the easiest gear, around 1:1 on most gravel bikes, the SL 1.2 or Fazua have around three times the torque, and probably twice the power. i have an X20 bike which is quite a bit more torquey than the X20 and at speeds below 8mph it can really only output around 150w.

my real world comparison (i have both bikes) is x20 to SL 1.1, and the SL 1.1 gives a lot more assist going up steep hills at low speeds. i would say close to twice. i personally don't find that necessary since i do entirely road riding and am OK with slow speeds up big hills, but in your case, a mid drive with a big granny gear sounds like the ticket.

Thank you very much, this is super helpful and detailed reply.

Now it would be really interesting to hear if somebody had tried in real life both mid drive options to understand difference in 50 vs 60 Nm and a bit of extra power.

 

[Nubnub]

I'm still not sure how the motor set up for 24" wheels would work on a full size bicycle.

From descriptions of people who have done the swap on the Levo SL, I would only have to swap the motors. The TDU's stay with their original bikes. BTW, the kids levo is set up with a parental selection of 10 or 15 mph limit. At $2500, the kids levo would provide both the motor swap option and a fresh internal battery. If the Skitch wasn't so much more lighter and more comfortable to me (even with suspsension post and stem on my SL), I'd probably give more consideration to the swap option.

 

[mschwett]

From descriptions of people who have done the swap on the Levo SL, I would only have to swap the motors. The TDU's stay with their original bikes. BTW, the kids levo is set up with a parental selection of 10 or 15 mph limit. At $2500, the kids levo would provide both the motor swap option and a fresh internal battery. If the Skitch wasn't so much more lighter and more comfortable to me (even with suspsension post and stem on my SL), I'd probably give more consideration to the swap option.

pretty interesting that the 1.2 motor would work with no changes to the TDU. given that mission control appears to interface with the TDU, i guess it's just passing through info from a control module elsewhere, which IS swapped with the motor?

 

[Vamos]

i think you'll see a HUGE difference with either bike. a significant "problem" with the x35 is that it really isn't efficient at producing power at low speeds, and since it's a hub rather than mid drive the range of speeds it has to deal with are much larger than a mid drive with a derailleur drivetrain. the 40Nm of torque of the x35 is kind of a made up number - the actual torque at the rear hub of an X35 is around 17-20nm. so, if you're in the hardest gear on the bike, that's actually a lot since the mid-drive torque is being cut by a factor of 4 due to gearing, turning the fazua's 60Nm into 15Nm at the rear axle.

if you're in the easiest gear, around 1:1 on most gravel bikes, the SL 1.2 or Fazua have around three times the torque, and probably twice the power. i have an X20 bike which is quite a bit more torquey than the X20 and at speeds below 8mph it can really only output around 150w.

my real world comparison (i have both bikes) is x20 to SL 1.1, and the SL 1.1 gives a lot more assist going up steep hills at low speeds. i would say close to twice. i personally don't find that necessary since i do entirely road riding and am OK with slow speeds up big hills, but in your case, a mid drive with a big granny gear sounds like the ticket.

I am baffled that the torque decreases so much.How does that happen?

 

[AvalancheRun]

I rode them both up hills (e.g. parking structure grade) with no problem un-powered. Turning on the power was wild. It's hard to imagine power would be a problem. In terms of 1.2 vs Fazua there didn't seem to be a noticeable difference in power output. That may be a situation where the devil is in the details. Reviewers say the Fazua waits a little longer to reward you based on your own pedal effort.

Noise is tough to quantify because motors tend to emit different frequencies, we have different ears, etc. and I tested them in briefly in drastically different environments (a parking structure, and outside on a windy day). It seemed like Creo 2 was nicer to my ear, though I'll note that most reviewers put the Fazua ahead in quietness. Did not notice the ratcheting sound Nubnub mentioned (this was the very windy ride). Neither were quite on par with the exceptionally quiet full power 2.2 Brose, but quieter than all other e-bikes I've tested.

Both were a little stiff too. I have a Diverge Expert now which is noticeably more compliant. Several back-to-back comparisons bore that out, as well as every review that I read. I would add a redshift stem to the Skitch, and consider seatpost options for both. Also tubeless, etc.

Now... riding around on my Diverge, do I wish I had a Creo 2? ...HECK YES!

Unless you do highly technical downhill terrain, or race, these light e-bikes just have so many advantages. The Comp model was about 2X the price of my Expert model though. Next time..

 

[mschwett]

I am baffled that the torque decreases so much.How does that happen?

on a typical bike, in the hardest gear, each time you pedal one rotation, the rear wheel spins around approx four time. closer to five on road bike, maybe three on an MTB etc. so, the speed is quadrupled but the torque, by nature, is one quarter. because the power is still the same. that’s why it’s soooo hard to start rolling in the highest gear - you need to pedal four times as hard!

if the motor is in the middle of the bike, it experiences exactly the same thing. but that’s fine, because the makers of mid drive motors have accounted for this, and gear the motor appropriately to be able to contribute meaningfully at the high end and the low end, with a fairly fixed speed.

for the x20 and x35 hub motors, mahle is playing a bit of a marketing game by saying their motor is “equivalent” to a mid drive with 50nM of torque, because it’s in the hub it doesn’t get reduced by the drivetrain in the hardest gear… but in the easiest gear, that’s really nonsense because there’s no such effect going on with a mid drive, once around the crank is close to once around the wheel. so the 50 nM mid drive really is 50 nM, and the 20 nM hub drive is … well, 20 nM!

generally these motors are pretty well designed for the speed and torque ranges required, but the hub motors are generally less effective at slow speeds going uphill. i have a mid drive and two hub drives, and they’re all well suited to their purpose but grinding at 5mph up a 20% grade with a small hub motor and a heavy load is very challenging!