Aventon Level 2 and loafing along

[Bobsiii]

My 2018 Magnum Metro needs a new battery after 8k miles and it has developed a tic in crank area on cold start, so I started looking for a new bike. Fell in love with the Aventon Level 2, with one caveat - the torque sensor.
I’m 79, have COPD and arthritis in both knees/wrist and learned to love loafing along 12-15 mph, ghost pedaling mostly, in pas 1 and 5th gear on the cadence sensor metro.
Never ridden a torque sensor bike, every review mentions “feels just like a regular bike”, and they’re all from young fit folks. With my fragile lungs and knees, is a torque sensor going to be a problem for me? I take regular 30-50 mile rides.

 

[Bobsiii]

I know I can go to higher pas and ghost or just throttle but don’t want to kill range, that’s why the pas 1 on metro worked well for me.

 

[AHicks]

I know I can go to higher pas and ghost or just throttle but don’t want to kill range, that’s why the pas 1 on metro worked well for me.

My "torque sensor" take, for lazy rides where you can't/don't want to put a lot of effort into pedaling, is to use PAS 1 OR PAS 2. When riding my torque sensor bikes, PAS 1 gives you a range of power from just under 100 watts (ghost pedaling), to about 250 watts with fairly heavy pedal pressure. Fine until you get to a hill or conditions requiring a power level closer to the heavy pedal pressure 250 watts for an extended period.

In PAS 2, light pedal pressure STILL allows a power level of under 100 watts (ghost pedaling for sure!), but now, heavy pressure allows something closer to 400 watts - for a big boost in available power, without changing gears or PAS levels...... for REALLY lazy riding. -Al

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Never ridden a torque sensor bike, every review mentions “feels just like a regular bike”, and they’re all from young fit folks. With my fragile lungs and knees, is a torque sensor going to be a problem for me? I take regular 30-50 mile rides.

Far from young and fit, but I have to agree with all those reviews. My only experience with cadence-sensing ebikes consists of 5 test rides. The 6th test was a torque-sensing Surface 604 V Rook with rear hub drive. Night and day. Wife felt the same. Bought 2 Rooks on the spot. That was 5 months ago.

I'm 74, in so-so shape at best, and also have dodgy knees. But my rides are only 10-20 miles so far, and my lungs are good. Hard for me or anyone else to know what's right for you.

My own experience, FWIW: I've read more than once that cadence-sensing ebikes are better for geezers with bum knees, but still not sure why. As long as I keep my cadence above 65 RPM, I'm fine on the Rook. I pedal at PAS 1/9 at least 95% of the time in mixed flattish and hilly terrain.

I solve cadence problems first with gear changes and then with PAS changes. Works well for me, and my knees are getting less finicky as the muscles around them get stronger.

In the end, you'll just have to test some torque-sensing ebikes for suitability.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Sorry, left out one key fact: My "gear first, then PAS" cadence control stategy works on the short, steep hills here only because I lowered my gearing across the board by swapping the stock 42t chainring for a 38t.

Cheap tweak that might be worth considering in your situation — especially if you go to a torque-sensing ebike. Lots less huffing and puffing with lower gearing.

 

[AHicks]

Far from young and fit, but I have to agree with all those reviews. My only experience with cadence-sensing ebikes consists of 5 test rides. The 6th test was a torque-sensing Surface 604 V Rook with rear hub drive. Night and day. Wife felt the same. Bought 2 Rooks on the spot. That was 5 months ago.

I'm 74, in so-so shape at best, and also have dodgy knees. But my rides are only 10-20 miles so far, and my lungs are good. Hard for me or anyone else to know what's right for you.

My own experience, FWIW: I've read more than once that cadence-sensing ebikes are better for geezers with bum knees, but still not sure why. As long as I keep my cadence above 65 RPM, I'm fine on the Rook. I pedal at PAS 1/9 at least 95% of the time in mixed flattish and hilly terrain.

I solve cadence problems first with gear changes and then with PAS changes. Works well for me, and my knees are getting less finicky as the muscles around them get stronger.

In the end, you'll just have to test some torque-sensing ebikes for suitability.

This is just an FYI, based on my own experience, for those looking further into this cadence only vs. torque sensing. It's very likely going to add to any confusion regarding cadence based potential. There ARE some cadence only controllers that allow the rider to choose between "speed" based output, and "power" based output. A LOT of experience here with the after market KT controllers, and UART based Bafang mid drives, both with this ability. There may be others I'm not familiar with. I do a lot of riding using both cadence and torque sensing, and this power based cadence makes the call about which is the better of the 2 MUCH more difficult....

MOST of the geared hub e-bikes sold come with speed based cadence only systems - and they generate a LOT of complaints related to poor low speed control of the bike. The bike "takes off on me as soon as I start pedaling" and "the bike is too fast" are REALLY common. This is because the bike is equipped with a "speed" based system. The PAS levels are set based on speed, and are kinda like on off switches. An example might run like this. From a stop is PAS 1, the bike will accelerate to 12-13mph while being pedaled. Stop pedaling, the motor turns off, and you coast. Otherwise, if you continue pedaling, the bike continues to accelerate to a predetermined speed established by the PAS level selected (PAS 1 = 12-13mph often). This makes it impossible to pedal continuously, maintain cadence, at low speeds (6-10 mph for instance).

THEN, there are the controllers set to use a fixed power level, based on selected PAS level, regardless of the bikes speed. These bikes have a TOTALLY different character, and show perfectly what CAN be done with a cadence only based system. Set to PAS 1 for instance, a fixed amount of power is supplied to the motor while the crank is being turned. The amount of power is often set to allow the rider to MAINTAIN cadence while running just 6-7 mph. A higher speed (or more power, for a hill for instance) is available by simple setting a higher PAS level. This chosen amount of power, selected using the different PAS levels, DOES NOT change with changes in speed like the simpler speed based systems above.

Bottom line, the "power" based cadence system can be thought of as having an adjustable (per PAS level) assist level, as in practice, that's exactly how it's used. My hope is that as the e-bike industry matures, more will learn about this power based system and start demanding/forcing the bike manf's start providing it, moving the speed based systems to the dark ages - where they belong. -Al

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

This is just an FYI, based on my own experience, for those looking further into this cadence only vs. torque sensing. It's very likely going to add to any confusion regarding cadence based potential. There ARE some cadence only controllers that allow the rider to choose between "speed" based output, and "power" based output. A LOT of experience here with the after market KT controllers, and UART based Bafang mid drives, both with this ability. There may be others I'm not familiar with. I do a lot of riding using both cadence and torque sensing, and this power based cadence makes the call about which is the better of the 2 MUCH more difficult....

MOST of the geared hub e-bikes sold come with speed based cadence only systems - and they generate a LOT of complaints related to poor low speed control of the bike. The bike "takes off on me as soon as I start pedaling" and "the bike is too fast" are REALLY common. This is because the bike is equipped with a "speed" based system. The PAS levels are set based on speed, and are kinda like on off switches. An example might run like this. From a stop is PAS 1, the bike will accelerate to 12-13mph while being pedaled. Stop pedaling, the motor turns off, and you coast. Otherwise, if you continue pedaling, the bike continues to accelerate to a predetermined speed established by the PAS level selected (PAS 1 = 12-13mph often). This makes it impossible to pedal continuously, maintain cadence, at low speeds (6-10 mph for instance).

THEN, there are the controllers set to use a fixed power level, based on selected PAS level, regardless of the bikes speed. These bikes have a TOTALLY different character, and show perfectly what CAN be done with a cadence only based system. Set to PAS 1 for instance, a fixed amount of power is supplied to the motor while the crank is being turned. The amount of power is often set to allow the rider to MAINTAIN cadence while running just 6-7 mph. A higher speed (or more power, for a hill for instance) is available by simple setting a higher PAS level. This chosen amount of power, selected using the different PAS levels, DOES NOT change with changes in speed like the simpler speed based systems above.

Bottom line, the "power" based cadence system can be thought of as having an adjustable (per PAS level) assist level, as in practice, that's exactly how it's used. My hope is that as the e-bike industry matures, more will learn about this power based system and start demanding/forcing the bike manf's start providing it, moving the speed based systems to the dark ages - where they belong. -Al

Just to get clear on the terminology, your "speed" and "power" designations refer to the nature of the motor control system's set-points?

In the "speed" type, once pedal rotation is detected, 100% of max motor power is applied until the bike reaches the limiting ground speed associated with the selected PAS level. Then the motor cuts out, whether or not you're still pedaling.

In the "power" type, as long as pedal rotation is detected, X% of max motor power is applied, regardless of ground speed, with X increasing with selected PAS level. The motor cuts out only when pedal rotation stops.

In neither case does the controller respond to actual cadence or chain tension (pedal force). Just pedaling, yes or no.

Did I get it right?

 

[AHicks]

Just to get clear on the terminology, your "speed" and "power" designations refer to the nature of the motor control system's set-points?

In the "speed" type, once pedal rotation is detected, 100% of max motor power is applied until the bike reaches the limiting ground speed associated with the selected PAS level. Then the motor cuts out, whether or not you're still pedaling.

In the "power" type, as long as pedal rotation is detected, X% of max motor power is applied, regardless of ground speed, with X increasing with selected PAS level. The motor cuts out only when pedal rotation stops.

In neither case does the controller respond to actual cadence or chain tension (pedal force). Just pedaling, yes or no.

Did I get it right?

Very close....

Re: speed mode, when the motor reaches it's "target" speed (ex. PAS 1 = 12-13mph and that's your current speed), my experience is it will stay running - as long as the "target" speed is under the top speed that's been set in another section of the the controller (the usual/generic 20-22mph or so).

In power mode, the same sort of thing regarding top speed the controller has been set at (assuming one has been set), where power doesn't really shut off, it just tapers off to the point where the bike can't go any faster than the set speed.

In either case, the cadence sensor senses only crank motion. There's more to what's done with that yes/no signal at the controller, but nothing to do with how fast you're pedaling (that's done elsewhere). When stopped, the controller is set up to count the pulses coming from the cadence sensor (a pulse is created each time a magnet passes the sensor). It needs a certain number of them to turn on the power to the motor. Too few, and you have a very sensitive pedal that CAN generate a "false start" when the controller gets just one pulse. Set for too many pulses, and the controller may be forced to wait for a half or even full turn of the crank to turn the power on. A lot of people like a KINDA sensitive crank (like me, for best possible low speed control), where others (a lot of rookies here) don't care for that sensitivity AT ALL! -Al

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Re: speed mode, when the motor reaches it's "target" speed (ex. PAS 1 = 12-13mph and that's your current speed), my experience is it will stay running - as long as the "target" speed is under the top speed that's been set in another section of the the controller (the usual/generic 20-22mph or so).

But doesn't that render this mode meaningless?