Assistance at higher speeds

[TechMan]

Hi!

I'm looking for a bike for a daily commute of 32 miles one-way (64 miles per day). Approximately half of the commute is gravel road and half is asphalt. I've been studying about Riese & Muller bikes and especially Delite HS Rohloff, since it would have front and rear suspension, which would smooth out the bumps on gravel roads. I would like to do the commute as fast as possible, without exhausting myself totally, so I would like to have a bike that gives enough power when travelling close that 28 mph speed limit. How have you found your HS (High Speed) versions support and power in faster speeds? Is it easy to maintain let's say, 26-27 mph constant speed on a flat terrain for a longer time? The dual-battery and a second charger at work is a clear choice for me.

 

[hurricane56]

The bike will make it, but it’s going to depend on how fit you are. In order to get above 25mph on the Bosch system you really have to work for it by putting in a moderate amount of effort with decent pedal cadence. A 32 mile commute might take you a little less than 2 hours. Your big variable will be road surface conditions and elevation.

 

[rich c]

No idea where you live TechMan, but here's a thought. Our son just bought a used Chevy Volt for $14,000 and it has two years left on the battery warranty. If you could charge at work, it would be the perfect battery powered commuting vehicle. Rain or shine, no effort ever. Now for the bicycle, be sure to ride some kind of eBike at that speed for 32 miles before you spend close to $9,000 on a Riese & Muller. Aerodynamics play a HUGE role in riding a bicycle at that speed. Your body has the aerodynamics of a brick at that speed. It's an exponential increase from even 23 to 28. I find it fairly easy to ride my speed Haibike at 23. I'd better be going down a grade to maintain 28mph for anything more than a few miles. Now for the safety concerns of riding at 26-27mph on 16 miles of gravel! Get off the path for an instant, and you are on marbles. That would be incredibly dangerous!

 

[TechMan]

Thanks for your thoughts. The whole distance cannot be ridden at full speed, that's for sure. But I'd like to ride fast at least the parts where the roads are in good condition. The "Control Technology" concept of Riese & Muller got me convinced that the full suspension might be beneficial at higher speeds and help me maintain higher speeds. I would be satisfied if I'd be able to maintain that 40 km/h (24 mph) on a flat terrain without too much effort. This is a bit crazy idea, I know, but I'm quite fanatic with it.

I have considered a hybrid car as well (actually Opel Ampera here in Europe, which is branded Chevy Volt in US) and probably will buy one at some point, but still my dream is to go two times per week to work by bike, excluding the 3-4 worst winter months. I like the idea of getting good exercise while commuting and I try to reduce my overall inactivity. A car will have it's expenses too, which are always bigger than with a bike.

I have also considered Stromer, which should be a bit faster, and Bultaco, which should go 45 km/h even without pedaling. I have to take a test ride of all three to see how they perform. At least the local Stromer store here in Finland promised to give me the ST2 for a day or two to try my normal commute with it. They don't have suspension in test ride models, but I have to try how the balloon tires compensate for that. I've been waiting for better conditions, because the roads are snowy and icy right now, and I would have to ride slowly and carefully, not seeing how the bike acts out at higher speeds.

 

[mid drive merv]

Thanks for your thoughts. The whole distance cannot be ridden at full speed, that's for sure. But I'd like to ride fast at least the parts where the roads are in good condition. The "Control Technology" concept of Riese & Muller got me convinced that the full suspension might be beneficial at higher speeds and help me maintain higher speeds. I would be satisfied if I'd be able to maintain that 40 km/h (24 mph) on a flat terrain without too much effort. This is a bit crazy idea, I know, but I'm quite fanatic with it.
ea
I have considered a hybrid car as well (actually Opel Ampera here in Europe, which is branded Chevy Volt in US) and probably will buy one at some point, but still my dream is to go two times per week to work by bike, excluding the 3-4 worst winter months. I like the idea of getting good exercise while commuting and I try to reduce my overall inactivity. A car will have it's expenses too, which are always bigger than with a bike.

I have also considered Stromer, which should be a bit faster, and Bultaco, which should go 45 km/h even without pedaling. I have to take a test ride of all three to see how they perform. At least the local Stromer store here in Finland promised to give me the ST2 for a day or two to try my normal commute with it. They don't have suspension in test ride models, but I have to try how the balloon tires compensate for that. I've been waiting for better conditions, because the roads are snowy and icy right now, and I would have to ride slowly and carefully, not seeing how the bike acts out at higher speeds.

I have a Raleigh Tekoa IE (2015) with the Tranzx mid drive and based on my experience with it, agree very much with the others who responded. I am 64 years, 71 inches tall and 172 pounds and can hold 28 mph on flat ground with decent effort on my part. But that is with no headwind. It does not take a lot of wind in the face to force me to drop down a gear and reduce speed if I am to keep my input at the same effort level. I consider the front suspension on the Tekoa to be vital to enjoying those higher speeds. Take away that front suspension fork, and I do not think I would enjoy the experience.

And there really is an exponential curve in play on your battery's resources when going from 20 to 23 to 28 mph. I enjoy the speed when doing treks where I have enough battery to allow the extravagance. But probably like many others here, many of my trips require me to not use my battery resources for that higher speed. It is not fun on an ebike to run out of battery before the designated trip distance is complete.

So yes, my answer would be that you can maintain that type of speed on level ground, no wind conditions, without coughing up a lung. But at the distance you are looking at, agreed that a dual battery will be a necessity. The model you mentioned is neat in offering that. Those who own R&M bikes seem, on average, to be highly pleased with the money spent.

 

[rich c]

I would be satisfied if I'd be able to maintain that 40 km/h (24 mph) on a flat terrain without too much effort. This is a bit crazy idea, I know, but I'm quite fanatic with it.

I like the idea of getting good exercise while commuting and I try to reduce my overall inactivity.

Maintaining speed without too much effort, and getting good exercise seem to be a big contradiction. Like I said, ride something and maintain that speed before buying the high dollar bike!

 

[TechMan]

Okay, good exercise can be understood in many ways. Riding a bike for 3-4 hours a day even with moderate effort is a good exercise for me

I just contacted Riese & Muller shop here in Finland, and they said that they don't have any high speed models to test drive. What a pity. You are right that it would be a bit risky to order anything that expensive without riding it first. I'd just want to find the best bike for my needs. It might not be the bike having the highest top speed, but the highest average speed considering the whole route from home to work.

 

[Dmitri]

GX Rohloff handles just fine at high speeds. The only things I can complain about is that wind affects at this speed are colossal. Depends on your posture I suppose, I sit in a vertical position so greater area of 'sail' for wind to move. Rohloff handles speed just fine, just ramp it up slowly and you'll be fine. To go 45-50kph I just switch to Sport, never had to use Turbo.

 

[Chris Hammond]

You should probably take a look at Juiced bikes. Their CrossCurrent S is designed to be a high speed commuter. It is available with a 52V 21Ah battery as well. I am in a similar situation as you, my commute is 30 miles each way and I want to ride as fast as possible. I've been researching for months, and keep coming back to the Cross Current. The price is about a third of the Riese & Muller. I honestly haven't done any research on that bike as it is well out of my price range. I'd honestly be surprised if it offers much to justify the price difference.

 

[rich c]

I've just had a hall sensor failure on a Bafang gear hub motor at just under 1,700 miles. With these high speed 60 mile commutes being suggested, I can't help but wonder just what the life of the components are going to be. You'll want to have brake pads on the shelf all the time. I mean 300 miles a week? That's 15,600 miles a year. Hell after thinking about it that way, how many bikes a year will you need?

 

[hurricane56]

I guess if it helps, here are some baseline figures from one year of commuting in 2017.

2016 Haibike Trekking S - Bosch Performance Line Speed
- approximately 4k miles, 1/3 urban stop and go, 2/3 rural
- new chain and cassette after 2500 miles
- One set of front brake pads at the end of the year, rear brake pads had about 3-4 months pad life remaining. Brakes are Magura Mt5.
- Rear tire is a Schwable Energizer Plus, it's about half of the tread life is worn, front tire is still almost new.

I agree with with @rich c , for such a heavy duty commute schedule, I'd be sticking to the big motor manufacturers. Also with the OP previous comment about dual suspension. It's certainly a nice to have but not vitally required feature for high mileage.

 

[Dmitri]

I've just had a hall sensor failure on a Bafang gear hub motor at just under 1,700 miles. With these high speed 60 mile commutes being suggested, I can't help but wonder just what the life of the components are going to be. You'll want to have brake pads on the shelf all the time. I mean 300 miles a week? That's 15,600 miles a year. Hell after thinking about it that way, how many bikes a year will you need?

Brake pads are an issue, especially the rear one. My solution to the problem is... two calipers on the rear wheel! People only do this for motorbikes, typically, but it makes sense for high-speed ebikes too. This requires the engineering of custom dropouts though

 

[Scooteretti]

With such high mileage each year you will be way ahead buying a bike with quality components today. If this is going to be your primary mode of transportation, you need reliability, durability and you need it to be cost-effective.

For high mileage riders the very basic MUST have's on a commuting ebike are:

- Mid drive unit's from (Bosch, Yamaha or Brose).

- Get the largest battery you can. 500Wh or more for the above-mentioned brands is ideal

- Get a 2nd charger ( one for home and 1 for work)

- Hydraulic disc brakes

- Premium rims and tires (the ultimate touring tires, in my opinion, are the Schwalbe Super Moto X). Seriously consider a bike that comes with them or that can be upgraded to them.

- High quality rear carrier rack / pannier rack

- With a mid-drive equipped bike there HAS to be an ebike spec'd chain on the bike. I see this as being the #1 indicator as to who designed and spec's that model of bike. Any quality ebike with a mid-drive that does not come with one in today's market is an indicator that this may not be the best high mileage bike. If the designers took the time to spec this that's typically a plus.

- Manufactures warranty on the drive units and battery. Any manufacturer offers less than 2 years on drive units and batteries is a something I would totally stay away from.

- Buy brands with great representation in the North American market. New, just launched or discontinued product may be a potential issue. You don't want to be the guinea pig, you want tried and tested products.

- High-quality lights front and rear. Something like Supernova, Busch & Muller etc...... Skip the no name branded stuff and it won't last. Ideally get something that's integrated into the bike. This will save you from having to worry about charging, replacing batteries etc...

- Look for good all-around drivetrains from Shimano and SRAM. Skip the low-end stuff and start at least with Shimano Deore and up as an example.

- For something reliable to do the mileage you are going after budget 3-4K to start and then it goes up from there. If you can afford more great go for it.


The list can go on but this is a great start as you shop around.

regards,



Will
shop.scooteretti.com

 

[Chris Hammond]

I disagree with Scooteretti on one point, that is having a mid-drive as a must for high mileage commuting. Mid-drives by their design are going to increase wear and tear on the drivetrain. There is no getting around this. Hub drives decrease wear on the drivetrain by design. A direct drive hub motor is likely going to provide the most reliable, low maintenance, long distance performance. Unfortunately, most bike builders using hub motors are using geared hubs. You can make arguements about the reliability of a given geared hub MOTOR vs a given mid-drive MOTOR only. Beyond that, the geared hub will still provide dramatically less wear on the drivetrain components than a mid-drive. There is also one other big point here, one of the more common mechanical failures with a mid-drive is a broken chain. This will absolutely leave you stranded unless you are carrying the parts and tools to fix it. On a hub motor, however, a broken chain can be picked up and you could ride home with throttle only if you chose. FWIW, I am a high mileage commuter on a non-ebike, (soon to join the ebike world) and I have broken chains during my commute. I always carry the tools to fix, but I can tell you it kinda sucks to have to do it on the side of the road, especially the last time when it was about 30 degrees and I had frozen hands working on my bike.

 

[Scooteretti]

@Chris Hammond nice to have input. My reason for recommending a mid drive and to answer some of the points you made are as follows:

1- While in theory this is true it really comes down to what quality of chains and sprockets are use. Certainly the first generation had these issues but as mid drives have become so popular suppliers like Connex and KMC have come out with ebike specific chains with pretty much eliminate this issue and have significantly increased wear resistance. It is not uncommon to get 3000 miles out of chain / from sprocket set up.

2- Agree that a high mileage rider should carry some spares and some basic tools. Chains like the KMC and Connex one's have the quick links so repairs out on the road will get you back up an running in just a few minutes. Truly super easy.

3- Hub motors especially geared hub systems from our experience will always have a lower overall life-cycle vs say a Bosch/Brose/Yamaha drive unit due to their inherent design and for the most part build quality. Most geared hub drive units are fairly inexpensive and mass produced in China where the quality of the internals are not as precise as the more popular high end mid drive units. Now this is not to say that they don't last a long time, they just don't typically last anywhere near as long as the high end mid drives.

In @TechMan 's case, the mileage is going to rack up pretty quickly and if the bike is to be a long term and reliable investment I firmly believe that the mid drive will outperform must rear hub systems.

4- True that if you have no chain or tools a rear hub with throttle could get you home (if there's enough remaining battery).

5- Flats (eventually will happen) will be significantly faster and easier to replace with a mid drive compared to most rear hub systems as there are no physical connectors and most bikes are typically equipped with some sort of quick release which makes things super easy.

While there are pros and cons to everything personally from our experience on selling thousands of electric bikes points more towards a higher end mid drive equipped bike as being the most cost effective and reliable for very high mileage riders.

There is certianly a place for hub motors and they do account for a good % of our business each year so I am certainly not knocking down their place in this market and they will be here for many years to come.

hope this helps,


Will
shop.scooteretti.com

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I disagree with Scooteretti on one point, that is having a mid-drive as a must for high mileage commuting. Mid-drives by their design are going to increase wear and tear on the drivetrain. There is no getting around this. Hub drives decrease wear on the drivetrain by design. A direct drive hub motor is likely going to provide the most reliable, low maintenance, long distance performance. Unfortunately, most bike builders using hub motors are using geared hubs. You can make arguements about the reliability of a given geared hub MOTOR vs a given mid-drive MOTOR only. Beyond that, the geared hub will still provide dramatically less wear on the drivetrain components than a mid-drive. There is also one other big point here, one of the more common mechanical failures with a mid-drive is a broken chain. This will absolutely leave you stranded unless you are carrying the parts and tools to fix it. On a hub motor, however, a broken chain can be picked up and you could ride home with throttle only if you chose. FWIW, I am a high mileage commuter on a non-ebike, (soon to join the ebike world) and I have broken chains during my commute. I always carry the tools to fix, but I can tell you it kinda sucks to have to do it on the side of the road, especially the last time when it was about 30 degrees and I had frozen hands working on my bike.

I too would say a DD hub is the best choice for on-road, long distance commuting.
I used to commute 60 miles round trip on my Stromer ST2. The silence, the power and efficiency was amazing.
Now, I have been commuting on a Haibike Speed pedelec because I need to carry the bike up many stairs and I can tell you it is not best for high speed commuting. The mechanical advantage at low speeds becomes a negative at high speed as you are running through the gears all the time.

 

[Scott Adams]

I too would say a DD hub is the best choice for on-road, long distance commuting.

Concur, I've got a 1998 Bionx 36V which I have run at 48V for many miles through tropical storms, etc. A well made DD with quality components is best for on-road distance work where nimble responsiveness isn't a primary consideration. Sorry I am not up to date on the latest from Bionx or Stromer, but I'm certain Ravi is.

I also love mid-drive bikes, especially when full suspension is desired or very high gradient hills must be tackled.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Scooteretti, you make a good point about flat repair. On a rear hub motor, rear wheel removal is far from quick and easy. That said, there are 2 easily viable workarounds to eliminate the need to even remove the rear tire in order to do a flat repair.
1) Take the tire off one side of the wheel with tire levers; remove the tube from tire (yes it is still pinned inside the rear triangle); find the hole in tube and patch it; check the tire for penetrating object and remove it; reassemble; inflate and go.
If the tube is irreparably damaged,
2) Carry a GAADI replacement tube, follow above steps to remove old tube, cut it in half and discard; place the snake shaped GAADI tube in tire; reassemble tire; inflate and go. https://gaadi.de/?lang=en
As you mentioned, there are pros and cons to any ebike. No matter what you choose, you are making a trade-off somewhere. We all have to find the bike that best suits our intended use.

 

[Scooteretti]

@JayVee @Chris Hammond I agree with your comments. In all honestly no one at this point really know for example what the true lifecycle is on a Bosch / Yamaha / Brose mid drive is going to be on average.

There a lot of riders in the world with 20,000 km's plus on their mid drives and they are still running smooth. I have a gut feeling that 30,000 Km's is not going to be an unrealistic #. But at this point I don't think there is anywhere near enough data out there. The good news is that they do last a really long time which is awesome.

With that much mileage most bikes (other than the high end ones) will reach a point of whether the remaning components (headsets, hubs, rims, tires, brakes etc.....) are also in good shape or whether it just makes financial sense to replace.

 

[TechMan]

Thank you for your thoughts. That Gaadi tube looks interesting. I'll have to purchase one if I decide to go with rear hub motor. As I wrote earlier, I do not intend to go every day 64 miles. I go to office only 1-3 days per week and I'm purchasing the bike for a car replacement.

It is hard to get a test drive for high speed version of Riese & Muller here, since the bike stores do not seem to have them (only on order). There is a big sports exhibition here next weekend, I'll go there to see which bikes they have to test drive. The most important things are that the bike is a joy to ride, and I can get to office as fast as possible, not forgetting the bike's reliability and total costs of ownership during the next 5-8 years. I'd preferably pay +7000 k for a bike that I like, than 4000 k for a bike that I don't like.