750W motor....legal or not?

[fullrangeebikes]

I apologize if this has been answered before, but I searched and couldn't find what I thought was a definitive answer. My question is, based on the wording of the federal and California Ebike laws, is a 750W motor legal? Let me preface this by saying I'm an engineer, so as I read the law, the wording is "less than 750W", rather than "not greater than 750W". In the first case, a 749W would be legal, but a 750 would not. In the second case, a 750W would be legal, but a 751W would not.

Since 750W is a very standard size, it seems to me that the intent of the law was to make 750W legal, but their wording actually excludes 750W. Is there a definitive industry consensus on whether or not "less than 750W" includes 750W or not? Bottom line, is 750W considered an Ebike or not?

Thank you for your help!

-Eric

 

[LimboJim]

I apologize if this has been answered before, but I searched and couldn't find what I thought was a definitive answer. My question is, based on the wording of the federal and California Ebike laws, is a 750W motor legal? Let me preface this by saying I'm an engineer, so as I read the law, the wording is "less than 750W", rather than "not greater than 750W". In the first case, a 749W would be legal, but a 750 would not. In the second case, a 750W would be legal, but a 751W would not.

Since 750W is a very standard size, it seems to me that the intent of the law was to make 750W legal, but their wording actually excludes 750W. Is there a definitive industry consensus on whether or not "less than 750W" includes 750W or not? Bottom line, is 750W considered an Ebike or not?

Thank you for your help!

-Eric

I'm not an engineer (nor an attorney), but I think you're right, the way the Federal law is worded, 750W should be over the limit. It seems, however, to be predominantly interpreted as "750 max." I've seen many ebikes marketed as "legal"at 750W, but who's checking the actual output?

To me, the real question of ebike motors' wattage measurement is "nominal" vs. "peak" output. My eMTBs' motors all rate as 250W, but typically peak over 500W. When I read further into the promotional hype of "750W" ebikes, many claim well over 1000W peak.

The Federal law doesn't seem to address this dichotomy, nor do I think there's much enforcement. If enough ebikes start running rampant at 40 mph, however, that would change...

 

[harryS]

Strictly, 750W does exceed the rules, but it's too difficult to explain this in marketing the bike. Marketing guys have to keep the message short and simple.

Most commercial ebikes will conform to Class I, II, or III. After all, it's the law in California and more and more other states, plus they have to affix a sticker. Let the manufacturer/seller bear the responsibility for meeting the laws. You're legal if it has the sticker.

I suspect the intent was to say an ebike should be under 1 horsepower , which is actually 745.6 watts, so they just said 750W. We should be happy that the USA didn't follow the Euro community and adopt their speed limits.

 

[Ken M]

The fact that the regulation is specific to a motor wattage rating it's entirely ambiguous because virtually any motor can be "rated" at any wattage. An engineer could set up a test that a motor that could run continuously at 750W / 500rpm / room temperature would overheat at 250Ws. Without specific information on how the motor is tested, the regulation needed to state at the power delivered to the motor by the drive system is 750W. That is simply not stated but there are many uptight people that will interpret that into the regulation. In other words, this is why some ebike drive systems are "legal" even though they may peak at close to 2000W - just spec that the motor is 750W or less.

My issue with the regulation is mainly about how it favors the way a drive system is designed - obviously the goofy low power limits in the EU favor mid drive motor and geared hub motors. I believe the EU regulations do state system power yet most ebike brands are exceeding that via the "peak" power loophole (if it's really a loophole).

Federal and State regulators need to balance the serious need for effective human scale transportation that ebikes provide and public safety. I really don't think there is any data indicating that ebikes have added risk to anyone but ebike riders so the claim that assist speeds are being capped at 20mph Class 1 or 28mph Class 3 is done so with nothing to back it up.

I'm commonly stating on the forums that insurance companies and DMV departments are the ones looking for ways to cash in on the growth of ebike usage. They want better pay and pensions so they want the performance bar set very low so they can push insurance, license, and registrations on most ebikes that have practical power levels. The mid drive manufacturers also want the bar set low because they are well aware it gives them a competitive advantage vs direct drive hub motors that are better at higher average speeds.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

From a practical standpoint this isn't ever going to be a problem -- it is unlikely a cop is going to have a spare dynanometer in the back of his rig and be willing to hook your e-bike up to it and measure the output. As has been pointed out, if the bike has the sticker it is good to go as far as you are concerned.

In general, as has been pointed out on many other threads, wattage ratings for e-bike motors are Not Trustworthy. I'd consider using wattage as a comparison as pointless across brands and often questionable even within a given brand.

 

[Ken M]

From a practical standpoint this isn't ever going to be a problem -- it is unlikely a cop is going to have a spare dynanometer in the back of his rig and be willing to hook your e-bike up to it and measure the output. As has been pointed out, if the bike has the sticker it is good to go as far as you are concerned.

In general, as has been pointed out on many other threads, wattage ratings for e-bike motors are Not Trustworthy. I'd consider using wattage as a comparison as pointless across brands and often questionable even within a given brand.

Until the police are carrying dynamometers I think there's a good market for someone selling Class 1 and 2 stickers with motor ratings less than 750W and assist speeds less than 20mph. Who isn't going to believe what is printed on a sticker. In reality, I see no difference than someone lying on a sticker than the lies the lawmakers make when trying to get elected so they can write poor legislation like we have on ebikes. I apologize if I have offended any elected official but unlikely they'll debate my point.

 

[Ebiker01]

The issues can arise if the person in charge of the law , may use his /her iphone and check my or your bike specs, as in : Mr. John doe, you are riding a Juiced CCX e bike, the website says your bike specs are- 750watts and 30+mph. You will get a summons for now as the law clearly says less then 750watts is legal....

 

[Ken M]

The issues can arise if the person in charge of the law , may use his /her iphone and check my or your bike specs, as in : Mr. John doe, you are riding a Juiced CCX e bike, the website says your bike specs are- 750watts and 30+mph. You will get a summons for now as the law clearly says less then 750watts is legal....

So maybe any manufacture currently claiming 750W should change that to 749.99W to ensure no one ???s that it's a compliant ebike. As has been pointed out 1hp is 745.7W so maybe they should claim something less than that. All these "loopholes" is why the regulations really need to be thought thru with lawmakers getting people with technical knowledge involved in the process.